Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Quote:
GT wrote:
These people are not poor because of their conditions. They have sufficient resources that they could do something with their lives if they had the intelligence and motivation to do so.
If the American poor make up the “stupid and lazy” element, hypothetically, we could simply carve that population from America and we could all be smart entrepreneurs, right? No new population of poor would sprout up to take their place, right?
Wrong.
Can we all be entrepreneurs? No.
You hate a group of people that MUST exist in a competitive system. Not that I don't understand why you hate them, the system teaches hate. You are just echoing it.
If we were all intelligent and motivated, there would still be poor people. Why? Because the system depends on it. More than that, the system depends on folks like you to support that ironic hatred.
Quote:
GT wrote:
These people are not poor because of their conditions. How do I know this? Because there are many success stories out there about people who have done just that.
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Vexed wrote:
hypothetically, we could simply carve that population from America and we could all be smart entrepreneurs, right? No new population of poor would sprout up to take their place, right?
No, but the new ones at the bottom would be on average.... the stupidest and laziest of that population?
Vexed wrote:
You hate a group of people that MUST exist in a competitive system. Not that I don't understand why you hate them, the system teaches hate. You are just echoing it.
I don't really "hate" them. Nor do I resent simply the fact that they are poor. If you read my earlier posts, I clearly state that what I resent is their sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility. The "victim" mentality. Once again I'm generalizing, but it's there.
Quote:
Quote:
GT wrote:
These people are not poor because of their conditions. How do I know this? Because there are many success stories out there about people who have done just that.
Turn off the TV.
Come on man, get real. If you've never known anybody move up the social mobility ladder (or down it for that matter), you're living under a rock.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
untothislast wrote:
My apologies.
None required.
Interesting to note Howards anti-terrorism antics and compare them to NZs top issue, which today is a TV news reader complaining about her salary.
It's not like the actual presenter in question does anything productive, she's just an auto-cue reader. But that's another group of people first against the wall when the revolution comes. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
threadbear wrote:
bobcousins wrote:
rogerhb wrote:
The one I find most remarkable is that Americans have been trained like monkeys to hate the poor. There are many arguments why, such as it's the land of opportunity etc.
It's actually a really good question. I saw a good analysis of it which I now can't find. At some point, the US was transformed from that Christian principle which says that everyone is equally worthy, provided they worship God, to a principle which implies your moral worth depends on how financially rich you are.
This has its roots in the change of social viewpoint. In the european old world, you had the class structure which defined where people were. Social mobility did not happen, people reluctantly accepted their lot. You can even see this today. Aristos and poor people actually get on really well. They both don't care about money (for different reasons), and just like to have a good time. It is the Middle class who agonise, they despise the rich for being lazy and inheriting wealth, and they either sympathise with the poor for being uneducated or despise them for having no aspirations. If you saw "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here..." you can see this being played out.
In the New World, the old class system is discarded. The new ethic is work hard and you will be successful. It's the "anyone can be President" principle. The flip side to this principle, is that if you are poor, it implies that you have not been working hard enough, or are otherwise defective. In fact, the idea of American social mobility is a complete myth. Studies have shown that social mobility is lower in the USA than in most other western countries. Americans will not however abandon the myth of a class-less society - it is their ideology. They stick to the ideology, and this is why the poor continue to be despised. They must be to blame themsleves for being poor - othwerse they deny the American Dream.
The reality is that modern America has a more rigid class structure than the world they tried to leave behind. The class structure is based on money and power, which determines access to education, jobs and capital. This is inherited as much as titles are. The poor are a constant reminder that the American Dream is a myth, and that is why they are despised.
Well put, Cousins. BTW, the term you're searching for here is Meritocracy. The US sees itself in this way, and to a degree, it was a meritocracy. But actually, the idea that the individual in the US could substantially change his status or increase his income through hard work and talent alone, is based on an absense of understanding of the labour movement.
The drive to unionize in the US accomplished more in terms of bumping the poor up a class than anything else. A good union job provided a family with means to provide for it's children and educate them. That together with the post war GI bill and Britain's losing it's status as a world power, created terrific opportunity for many Americans.
As unions lost power, society began reinforcing the idea of the power of the individual. The idea that "you create your own reality" may have some metaphysical merit, but that has been a weak force against the mundane reality of globalization and the resulting outsourcing of manufacturing jobs.
But people, including the poor, suck it up. They've integrated the twisted "spiritual" values that insist that efforts to improve themselves should remain atomized, isolated and independant. They labour away in utter futility, while the upper class networks like crazy in a true "collectivist" effort to accomplish their goals.
"Despite the negative origin of the word, there are many who believe that a meritocratic system is a good thing for society. Proponents of meritocracy argue that a meritocratic system is more just and more productive than other systems, and that it allows for an end to distinctions based on such things as sex and race (though social classes would still exist).
Young's central criticism of meritocracy was that a system in which social position is determined by objective characteristics would still be inegalitarian and unstable. There have since been other lines of criticism; proponents of critical theory often argue that merit is defined by the power elite simply to legitimise a system in which social status is actually determined by class, birth, and wealth."
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
rogerhb wrote:
rogerhb wrote:
gt1370a wrote:
And the feeling that people are "entitled" to that is what causes resentment from people like me, who have to pay for it.
Why don't you have the same resentment towards the government and the corporations who meet exactly the same criteria?
We haven't had an answer to this question yet. Hint. Hint.
I think Vexed is on the same page as me.
I must have missed this question - or maybe I have the person who posted it blocked. Anyway - who says I don't? For example, the airlines. I think they are struggling because they are fundamentally poorly run businesses. They treat their customers like prisoners. I don't think the government should bail them out, unless it can be demonstrated that bailing them out is necessary for the overall economy (kind of like with welfare or anything - some level of it is necessary to benefit society overall). I resent the fact that they fail due to their own shortcomings, and then feel entitled to a bailout from taxpayers.
Ok, I just came across some indisputable evidence to support my side of the argument. The Simpsons were on, it was the episode where Homer was assigned a new area code. The town was outraged about the new area code, and Homer discovered that the rich part of town was the part that got to keep the old area code. So he led the poor side to secede, and form "New Springfield." Shortly thereafter, Kent Brockman on the news said "Scientific studies have shown that the squalid conditions in New Springfield are caused by the residents' lazy attitudes and shoddy work effort." Homer shouted at the TV - "HOW DID THEY KNOW THAT!?" Kent Brockman went on to state that they were also less attractive physically and some other stuff, I was laughing too hard to catch it all. Just goes to show you, the Simpsons are always relevant! HA!
Rogerhb, if you guys don't have the Simpsons there, I am so sorry that you won't be able to appreciate the humor in that....
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Vexed wrote:
Young's central criticism of meritocracy was that a system in which social position is determined by objective characteristics would still be inegalitarian and unstable. There have since been other lines of criticism; proponents of critical theory often argue that merit is defined by the power elite simply to legitimise a system in which social status is actually determined by class, birth, and wealth."
If social position is not determined by objective characteristics, what SHOULD it be determined by?
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12533 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
Vexed wrote:
Young's central criticism of meritocracy was that a system in which social position is determined by objective characteristics would still be inegalitarian and unstable. There have since been other lines of criticism; proponents of critical theory often argue that merit is defined by the power elite simply to legitimise a system in which social status is actually determined by class, birth, and wealth."
If social position is not determined by objective characteristics, what SHOULD it be determined by?
Why does there need to be "social position?" _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Ludi wrote:
Why does there need to be "social position?"
We people do need to have some form of organisation of society, be it a tribal chief, group of elders or a Mayor. Then there is the division of responsibilities for tasks to assist the society as a group, some jobs are worse than others, how do you share them.
However for 'social position' that is indeed interesting. Who cares? Where it does matter is the fitting in to society, not being considered an outsider, and appearing attractive to potential mates.
You'll find those last things in other primate groupings, we're not so different as we like to think. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Ludi wrote:
gt1370a wrote:
Vexed wrote:
Young's central criticism of meritocracy was that a system in which social position is determined by objective characteristics would still be inegalitarian and unstable. There have since been other lines of criticism; proponents of critical theory often argue that merit is defined by the power elite simply to legitimise a system in which social status is actually determined by class, birth, and wealth."
If social position is not determined by objective characteristics, what SHOULD it be determined by?
Why does there need to be "social position?"
It's a naturally occurring phenomenon. People want things. They try to get them. Those who can, do; those who can't don't. Hierarchies develop. It can either be ordered as within a society or chaotic as in anarchy. In different situations, different characteristics are valuable. In a society like ours, intelligence and hard work are valued. In a more chaotic system, it might just be brute force.
So you would like enforce a system where there is absolute equality of outcome? Everybody is exactly the same? Have you been reading Ray Bradbury, and missing the point?
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 209 Location: North Texas
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
My wife counsels at a University program that provides lots of free things for poor people - loans, study skills, tests, tutoring - the works. She has learned one basic fact about people who are lacking money, and that is because they are poor, whenever they get ANY money, they spend it. That is their mentality. In their heads they are thinking, "I may never get this money again", so they go and blow it.
There was one student that they worked very hard for to get him $1,600 worth of financial aid. He blew the whole thing taking his family on a vacation the second he got it. My wife asked him what he was thinking, he said they haven't been anywhere for a while and weren't likely to ever have this money again. This is just one instance among many.
The mentality of the poor is so different from the normal person. I would bet that if $1 million was given to every single poor person, 90% of them would be flat broke in 2 years due to their lack of education and the mindset that they seem to have about blowing money. They also have little concept of saving, which keeps them perpetually poor. But when I look around at the people in the middle class that I work with, they seem to have no concept of savings either, so I guess we'll all be poor together one day.
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