How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
He missed another important caveat as well, Monte..
Quote:
First published July 2005; article no. 573
The population of the World expanded six-fold in parallel with oil production during the First Half of the Age of Oil. William Stanton, author of The Rapid Growth of Human Population 1750-2000, contributes the following analysis of how population will have to return to pre-Oil Age levels. Let us hope that it does not come to this, but the options explained do have a certain chilling logic.
I do believe poor widdle JD believes that Campbell wrote the piece...
Quote:
I would call Colin Campbell a fascist. Not because he picnics in the woods, but because he prints fascist screeds in the ASPO newsletter, stating that we need to exterminate the elderly and handicapped in order to cope with peak oil.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
They tried that crap in China. Now even the Communist Chinese are backing off. That screed was pure eco-fascism. Do you guys really want the government telling you how many kids to have, murdering your handicapped children (extremely Nazi like), Forcing abortions, euthanasia, and infanticide. I have lost all respect for this group. Any government that can get away with this will get away with anything. This is the recipe for total enslavement.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:16 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Chicagoan wrote:
They tried that crap in China. Now even the Communist Chinese are backing off. That screed was pure eco-fascism. Do you guys really want the government telling you how many kids to have, murdering your handicapped children (extremely Nazi like), Forcing abortions, euthanasia, and infanticide. I have lost all respect for this group. Any government that can get away with this will get away with anything. This is the recipe for total enslavement.
Never give up your rights for any reason.
You would choose the worse option instead?
How sanctimonious! _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
MonteQuest wrote:
Chicagoan wrote:
They tried that crap in China. Now even the Communist Chinese are backing off. That screed was pure eco-fascism. Do you guys really want the government telling you how many kids to have, murdering your handicapped children (extremely Nazi like), Forcing abortions, euthanasia, and infanticide. I have lost all respect for this group. Any government that can get away with this will get away with anything. This is the recipe for total enslavement.
Never give up your rights for any reason.
You would choose the worse option instead?
How sanctimonious!
Lay down and die? Bah, you aren't thinking straight! I won't go down without a fight!
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:11 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Back on topic...
The entire focus on 'eco-fascism' is pretty much because it takes away our individual right. Our individual right to live the way we want (lazy or having a progeny filled life or being able to buy the cheaper product because the regulations for mercury dumpage is lax).
People get mad when they percieve their individual liberty (and the connection it has to 'wealth' and the pursuit of happiness...) being taken away.
Some of the points of Richard Heinberg's connection with the more eco-fascist types is not discontinuous with his environmental leanings (goiing and living on those eco-communities is a pretty big step into the world I would think)... and quite a few environmentalists are aware of the whole 'population increases = doom for environment = die-off scenario' connection.
This leads to a bunch of crazy thinking like some of the examples in the forum thread... as well as fascist-like 'mercy' measures...
Joined: Aug 18, 2004 Posts: 694 Location: SF Bay Area, Calif
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:53 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
On the other hand ...
There are some pretty nasty currents in the Doomer side of the Peak Oil movement.
Even though Colin Campbell didn't write the article on population control, he approved it for inclusion in his newsletter.
Even though the essay says that the draconian measures are better than "letting Nature take its course," one should realize that there are always rationalizations like this for fascist measures.
The BNP, the British fascist party, is interested in Peak Oil, and has worked it into their platform.
Jay Hanson, to judge by the quotes, does seem to be advocating a military dictatorship.
There is a racist component to part of the population control movement.
// What disturbs me is the eagerness with which Hanson and Stanton seem to embrace authoritarianism. They don't seem to see the downsides, which makes me question their judgment in general.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:25 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
trespam wrote:
Sorry JD, but you negate the many good arguments you make when you call people like Campbell a fascist. Yes, he did put that population screed into the newletter, and I questioned the value of putting it there. But to float the idea of population control, or what could happen if enery production and food production plummets, does not make him a fascist.
Sorry trespam, I don't buy it. I found that article to be fascist filth of the rankest sort, and I was not deceived by the cover-your-ass disclaimers. A lot of people agree with me, so we'll just have to leave it at that.
Quote:
Fascism is not population control.
I'm in favor of population control -- on a voluntary basis, and with proper respect for the persons concerned. Suggesting that the elderly and handicapped should be exterminated, however, is fascism. In fact, it's even worse than fascism. Even the Third Reich euthanized the handicapped in secret due to resistance from the German people:
Quote:
The Murder of the Handicapped
Wartime, Adolf Hitler suggested, "was the best time for the elimination of the incurably ill." Many Germans did not want to be reminded of individuals who did not measure up to their concept of a "master race." The physically and mentally handicapped were viewed as "useless" to society, a threat to Aryan genetic purity, and, ultimately, unworthy of life. At the beginning of World War II, individuals who were mentally retarded, physically handicapped, or mentally ill were targeted for murder in what the Nazis called the "T-4," or "euthanasia," program.
The "euthanasia" program required the cooperation of many German doctors, who reviewed the medical files of patients in institutions to determine which handicapped or mentally ill individuals should be killed. The doctors also supervised the actual killings. Doomed patients were transferred to six institutions in Germany and Austria, where they were killed in specially constructed gas chambers. Handicapped infants and small children were also killed by injection with a deadly dose of drugs or by starvation. The bodies of the victims were burned in large ovens called crematoria.
Despite public protests in 1941, the Nazi leadership continued this program in secret throughout the war. More than 200,000 handicapped people were murdered between 1940 and 1945.
Right now, every country in the world--every one--through its structure, it's ideology, it's economic priorities, it's overall priorities--is deciding that some people live and other people die. It is happening. You know it is.
That right there is a defense of fascism. After all, if the U.S. is killing people everyday, and the Nazis are gassing the retarded every day, what's the big whoop? We're all killers, so we're all equivalent. No need to fight the Nazis. Let them gas away -- we're just as bad, gassing the retarded every day with our "ideologies" and "economic priorities".
I most definitely do not equate the U.S. with the Nazis, and it disgusts me that you do. I make a very clear distinction between democracy and fascism. It just so happens that calls to exterminate the retarded fall on the Nazi side of the scale.
Just curious Trespam, but where exactly do you stand on euthanizing the handicapped?
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:46 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Maybe you can clear up something else for me, Trespam. Since you claim that the Stanton piece was just a piece of fiction like "12 Monkeys" or "The Three Stooges", what do you make of this bit:
Quote:
To those sentimentalists who cannot understand the need to reduce UK population from 60 million to about 2 million over 150 years, and who are outraged at the proposed replacement of human rights by cold logic, I would say “You have had your day, in which your woolly thinking has messed up not just the Western world but the whole planet, which could, if Homo sapiens had been truly intelligent, have supported a small population enjoying a wonderful quality of life almost for ever. You have thrown away that opportunity.”
Was that just one of the "characters" talking? A hypothetical statement that somebody, someday might say?
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
MonteQuest wrote:
Chicagoan wrote:
They tried that crap in China. Now even the Communist Chinese are backing off. That screed was pure eco-fascism. Do you guys really want the government telling you how many kids to have, murdering your handicapped children (extremely Nazi like), Forcing abortions, euthanasia, and infanticide. I have lost all respect for this group. Any government that can get away with this will get away with anything. This is the recipe for total enslavement.
Never give up your rights for any reason.
You would choose the worse option instead?
How sanctimonious!
It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees.
Joined: Feb 25, 2005 Posts: 772 Location: Luton, England
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Quote:
Colin Campbell should have had more sense than to print it though I don't get the impression he is a fascist (or any other type of authoritarian) from his newsletters generally.
Yes, censor views which conflict with our own, thats not fascist at all.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
I second Bart's opinion - some of the doomer world has gone off the deep end lately - Jay (yes - he's just a programmer) in particular should know better and I wouldn't try and defend Stanton's article either if I were any of you.
Colin Campbell should have had more sense than to print it though I don't get the impression he is a fascist (or any other type of authoritarian) from his newsletters generally.
Going back to the original topic of the thread, I read RI occasionally and as far as conspiracy theory sites go its generally pretty entertaining - totally out of whack with everyday reality of course, but lets face it - Mike Ruppert predicted the collapse of America would occur a few weeks ago and it still seems to be there and I'm sure plenty of you still read FTW regardless.
Why Jeff is seeing nazis in the peak oil world and in the person of Heinberg in particular I have no idea - he's been seeing nazis under the bed a lot lately so maybe that is partly it. Maybe he'd come across some of the nuttier dieoff stuff and associated Heinberg, who generally seems to be a classic leftie / hippie type to me, with it (one who has complained about the rise of fascism himself for that matter).
The link to "New Dawn" is a bit tenuous too, given that they have just lifted sections out of his "Museletter", much like a random peak oil blogger would.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
JohnDenver wrote:
Just curious Trespam, but where exactly do you stand on euthanizing the handicapped?
The answer is not directed to me, but I'm going to answer it anyway: in tough times, the handicapped are a lot more likely to die. I imagine you make a big difference between actively killing them and passively killing them by withdrawing access to medication and other medical treatment because there isn't enough money or resources, but I do wonder if it's such a big difference.
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