Don’t worry, just a little bump - $70 is just around the corner. Short traders just keep making those margin calls, mortgage the house if you have to. Fortunes await you! PO is for pansies and doomers. At $70 short some more ..... it is going back to $22 .... the world is awash with oil ........ reality has nothing to do with it, its all in those charts!!!!!!!!!!
Joined: Oct 22, 2005 Posts: 705 Location: European Capital of Kulcha 2008
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
Ludi wrote:
gt1370a wrote:
Vexed wrote:
Young's central criticism of meritocracy was that a system in which social position is determined by objective characteristics would still be inegalitarian and unstable. There have since been other lines of criticism; proponents of critical theory often argue that merit is defined by the power elite simply to legitimise a system in which social status is actually determined by class, birth, and wealth."
If social position is not determined by objective characteristics, what SHOULD it be determined by?
Why does there need to be "social position?"
It's a naturally occurring phenomenon. People want things. They try to get them. Those who can, do; those who can't don't. Hierarchies develop. It can either be ordered as within a society or chaotic as in anarchy. In different situations, different characteristics are valuable. In a society like ours, intelligence and hard work are valued. In a more chaotic system, it might just be brute force.
So you would like enforce a system where there is absolute equality of outcome? Everybody is exactly the same? Have you been reading Ray Bradbury, and missing the point?
The perception of poverty is subjective and personal, based upon the fact that in modern society, we set the bar for what we consider to be an acceptable level of affluence, ever higher - in order to keep people running around on the old Hamster wheel, in search of greater material rewards.
Because the dollar/pound/euro in your pocket only has any value at all, because it isn't in someone else's; the only way to assist you in your aspirations, is to create a system whereby large swathes of the world's population are actively kept from reaching the same position as you - whereupon you would lose your position of relative supremacy and wealth (which is what your ego really craves). Meanwhile, we live off the backs of their labour very well indeed. The reason why so much of the world's manufactures are coming out of China, and why an enquiry about my domestic gas supply will most probably be dealt with by a young man in Delhi, is because we can get away with paying them a pittance.
Some people are poor because they're plainly lazy. Some are relatively (there's that word again) poor, because their needs are modest and simple. For the most part, the rest are born into that condition, and will never be able to escape it, because it's in our own interests that the wealth doesn't get a chance to trickle down too much.
I've never had a problem with the idea of people advancing themselves, via their own innate talents and personal ambition - but the crucial thing, is that it shouldn't exploitatively be at the expense of anyone else. We also need to ensure that there is always a basic safety net provision in society, so that people don't just fall through the cracks.
'What? You mean they get something for free?!
Yes. And at a fundamental - no frills level - why not?
Think we can't afford to eradicate real poverty? Take a look at how much the US (sorry if the US keeps getting bagged, but it IS the only world superpower) has spent on armaments and the prosecution of war since WW2. Type it out, and when your wrist goes dead from hitting the zero key, don't say I didn't warn you.
Joined: Oct 22, 2005 Posts: 705 Location: European Capital of Kulcha 2008
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
The previous posting - presuming this is next in line - is not me having a go specifically at gt1370a. Heaven forbid. If I've used 'you' or 'your' I meant it in a more general sense.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11880 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
Ludi wrote:
gt1370a wrote:
Vexed wrote:
Young's central criticism of meritocracy was that a system in which social position is determined by objective characteristics would still be inegalitarian and unstable. There have since been other lines of criticism; proponents of critical theory often argue that merit is defined by the power elite simply to legitimise a system in which social status is actually determined by class, birth, and wealth."
If social position is not determined by objective characteristics, what SHOULD it be determined by?
Why does there need to be "social position?"
It's a naturally occurring phenomenon. People want things. They try to get them. Those who can, do; those who can't don't. Hierarchies develop. It can either be ordered as within a society or chaotic as in anarchy. In different situations, different characteristics are valuable. In a society like ours, intelligence and hard work are valued. In a more chaotic system, it might just be brute force.
So you would like enforce a system where there is absolute equality of outcome? Everybody is exactly the same? Have you been reading Ray Bradbury, and missing the point?
Hierarchies as we know them in the sense of social classes are only a "naturally occuring phenomenon" in civilization, not in human culture in general. Most cultures have been much less hierarchical. Even in a band or tribal arrangement, leaders or elders would not be as stratified from the rest of the population as we see in our own society.
I don't believe everyone is exactly the same. At the same time, I do not approve of or support hierarchies.
Nor do I approve of "enforcing" any system, nor have I ever said so in any way shape or form. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Jul 18, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Kez wrote:
My wife counsels at a University program that provides lots of free things for poor people - loans, study skills, tests, tutoring - the works. She has learned one basic fact about people who are lacking money, and that is because they are poor, whenever they get ANY money, they spend it. That is their mentality. In their heads they are thinking, "I may never get this money again", so they go and blow it.
There was one student that they worked very hard for to get him $1,600 worth of financial aid. He blew the whole thing taking his family on a vacation the second he got it. My wife asked him what he was thinking, he said they haven't been anywhere for a while and weren't likely to ever have this money again. This is just one instance among many.
The mentality of the poor is so different from the normal person. I would bet that if $1 million was given to every single poor person, 90% of them would be flat broke in 2 years due to their lack of education and the mindset that they seem to have about blowing money. They also have little concept of saving, which keeps them perpetually poor. But when I look around at the people in the middle class that I work with, they seem to have no concept of savings either, so I guess we'll all be poor together one day.
Interesting. I think as you say that if someone never has any money, they never learn to manage it correctly. I think basic financial education should be taught in school...
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Ludi wrote:
I don't believe everyone is exactly the same. At the same time, I do not approve of or support hierarchies.
Nor do I approve of "enforcing" any system, nor have I ever said so in any way shape or form.
Alas most groupings of primates have some form of hierarchy. The number of tiers in the hierarchy is a function of how big the grouping is. The bigger the group, the more tiers required to function.
The hiearchy is enforced, even while individuals jockey for position, because otherwise there would be chaos. Order is required for the group to cooperate. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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