How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
There is nothing you can do about nature. But there is something you can do about human oppression.
The elite tell us to conserve while they fly around in learjets. You want to give them the power to decide who lives and who dies? They don't plan on altering their lifestyle! They will just enslave us, and when we are no longer useful to them as slaves, they will kill us.
Look at Heinberg's resume. He is pals with all the New World Order fascists. The same people who control our governments! He was a member of the Bush-Cheney energy taskforce and is a member of the Bilderberg Group and Bohemian Club. He hangs around with the folks who funded Hitler and profiteered during WWII (and all major subsequent wars).
Joined: Oct 07, 2005 Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
airstrip1 wrote:
Peak Oil attractive to fascists ? Who would have believed it. Problem is how are they going to power their panzers ?
patchouli power!? then they'll kill with organic poison gas!
Hell, Jello Biafra and the Dead Kennedys were singing about (well, having a laugh about) environmental fascists in 'California Uber Alles' waaay back in '79. Fanatics are fanatics.
Quote:
Zen fascists will control you
100% natural
You will jog for the master race
And always wear the happy face
Close your eyes, can't happen here
Big Bro' on white horse is near
The hippies won't come back you say
Mellow out or you will pay
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Chicagoan wrote:
Look at Heinberg's resume. He is pals with all the New World Order fascists. The same people who control our governments! He was a member of the Bush-Cheney energy taskforce and is a member of the Bilderberg Group and Bohemian Club. He hangs around with the folks who funded Hitler and profiteered during WWII (and all major subsequent wars).
I don't mean to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about ?
Care to post Heinberg's resume and show any proof of any of this ?
The guy is a humanities professor at an alternative college in San Francisco as I recall. I can't imagine a less likely Bilderberger.
You may be confusing him with Matt Simmons, who is reportedly a member of the CFR if you must look up everyone's associations to decide what conspiracy theory to apply - but I haven't noticed anyone saying he is a Bilderberger or a Bohemian Grove attendee, let alone accusing him of funding the nazis...
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
The remarks in question regarding whether Heinberg is a member of BG or is a Bilderberger, or even was a consultant to the Cheney energy task force is in doubt...
For example, here's a quote from a paper by Heinberg on Bilderberg:
Quote:
The US exercised leadership by consensus - again, because it could easily afford to do so. This consensus evolved through both GATT trade negotiations and geostrategic Bilderberg meetings, in which the main Western powers conspired [emphasis added] to effectively control the economies and political destinies of most of the rest of the world's nations.
He's a prof at the New College of S. Cal., an alternative college. I went to HS with an extremely bright fellow who chose that school, and I recall how cool it was to be able to walk around without shoes to class, how there were no 'grades' (just written evals), etc.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1131 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
A free society has laws to protect it's citizens. You maintain your personal freedom even though you don't have the freedom to rob a store of it's food or shoot your neighbor. These laws exist to maintain the harmony and infrastructure of society. Makes sense.
Socially engineered population control has the same basis of justification.
To maintain harmony and the infrastructure of a society. Laws limiting population should not be seen as effecting one's personal freedom. An individual, community or country breeding beyond their carrying capacity causes far more harm than an individual robbing a store or shooting their neighbor. It robs future generations of their resources and causes infinately more death and disease than an individual murderer.
Personal freedom is held deeply sacred in our modern culture and yet we have given up so many freedoms to maintain it. We move every generation closer to chickens in a modern poultry factory. Just look at urban sprawl from a jet plane and you'll understand what I mean. A chicken's life in a modern poultry facility is far removed from his natural habitat. How many suburbanites move in equally artificial arrangements?
We developed a concept of modern personal freedom based on the liberation of the individual from previous human based repressive social and political tyranical organizations. It is not tyranny however when a government or social organization limits population when the motive is for the wellbeing of humanity and the planet.
A baby nurses his mother, the milk flows. If he bites his mother's nipple she will scold him. Well mankind, we have been chewing off mother nature's breast and the blood is flowing down our throats and drowning us. And this we call personal freedom. Let's go on defending this until we suck out mother nature's heart while we are at it.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1131 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
I recall that Richard Heinberg has a strong foundation in eastern philosophy and specifically buddhism. Population control does not have to have an eco-fascist justification. Here is a buddhist slant on the moral justification for advocating limits on personal freedom to attain sustainable ecological principals and controlling population:
“The Buddhist position is that the bottom line is your motivation. The motivation flavors the action and the effect. In our tradition, God is cause and effect. If you have a good motivation, even though you’re committing a non-virtuous action the effect in this life, or a future life, is very different than if you perform an action maliciously or with ill will".
Are laws that limit personal freedom eco-fascist if the motivation or intent is with the love of ones fellow man and planet?
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Ibon wrote:
It is not tyranny however when a government or social organization limits population when the motive is for the wellbeing of humanity and the planet.
You're just blowing air, not taking a stand on anything. Tell us exactly what you mean by "a government limiting the population". What exact measures are you proposing? You could be proposing anything from better education for girls to forcing girls to have abortions at gun point.
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:14 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Quote:
limit personal freedom
In "traditional" societies this was done very effectively. They had barriers to starting a family, something that does not exist in todays world. In the city setting all is possible and all does happen.
But I am convinced that hindrances are placed in paths of young people to allow them to manage the issue of limited birth rates. Here in Poland there is more effort to teach religion than sex education.
It would be interesting to see statistics on whether the child that is born is one that was planned or not.
Watching this issue in the US over the years it is clear to me that consumer based industries do not support good sex education and birth control as this will cut into their profits. Sex education is said to be best done at home. Yeh, in front of the TV with Jessica Simpson. _________________ Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Leftist, conspiratorialist morons. I remember reading an article somewhere claiming Peak Oil was a "Big Oil/Israeli" conspiracy to kill Palestinians.
Some people get so emotionally involved with the plight of particular groups they utterly fail to understand the big picture and act rationally. These people are as dangerous and as stupid as the extreme Right. Their only saving grace is they are not in power.
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Ibon wrote:
JohnDenver wrote:
What exact measures are you proposing?
Let's start by culling the hurd sticking your head in a tree shredder.
That tells us all we need to know about your kindly and loving motives. Somehow, I don't think Buddhism would approve of sticking someone's head in a tree shredder.
Joined: Aug 18, 2004 Posts: 694 Location: SF Bay Area, Calif
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
I wonder if we could be more careful about calling people Nazis, Bilderbergers, etc.
We really have to be careful about self-righteousness, paranoia, and believing we are the Voice of Zarasthustra, smiting villians and upholding justice. Accusations and attacks are demoralizing and unpleasant; don't we have enough problems in the world without our personally adding to them?
Most of the people on this site should be allies. We don't all believe the same things, but we understand the issues surrounding Peak Oil, and that makes us different from 99% of the rest of the population.
Caroline Casey wrote a column once about the Art of Being an Ally -- the idea that it takes skill and diplomacy to work with others in a political or cultural movement.
To be effective, we must work with people with whom we disagree on a number of issues. I'm sure that I don't see eye-to-eye with Roscoe Bartlett or Matthew Simmons about many things, but I greatly respect their work on peak oil.
On this list, I find myself constantly challenged by the likes of JohnDenver and MonteQuest, for example. Both are strong personalities with strong opinions; I have learned a lot from both of them, even though we have had our disagreements.
Isn't it possible to search for points of agreement? Yes, let's note disagreements, but we don't have to humiliate other people or say nasty things about them.
Learning how to get along with others is a survival issue. Any group that can work together effectively has a much better chance of surivival than one that can't.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1131 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
JohnDenver wrote:
Ibon wrote:
JohnDenver wrote:
What exact measures are you proposing?
Let's start by culling the hurd sticking your head in a tree shredder.
That tells us all we need to know about your kindly and loving motives. Somehow, I don't think Buddhism would approve of sticking someone's head in a tree shredder.
Why don't you just answer the question honestly?
I can answer the question honestly and I can discuss this without getting nasty, I just sometimes get overtaken with a dark humour that makes me set the buddhist in me aside. We are multidimensional creatures, aren't we?
On the subject of forced control of population I should say this is all quite theoretical. I believe we are so far, and I mean so far away from cultural assets that would enable us to do this at this point in time that we can forget about the possibility in the near term. We don't have the cultural or religeous or economic references for this in our collective cultural history and I see it only getting embedded into our culture on the other side of our eventual collapse.
Anyway, if we can hypothetically imagine an enlightened global community of governments legislating population control today I would personally not see it as an afront to my personal freedom or those of my offspring if we limited the number of children we can have, mandate the use of contraceptives and or abortion or sterilization to guarantee it. Those already here should be allowed the highest quality of life permitted within a sustainable paradigm. With the help of natural cycles of disease etc. we could achieve a sustainable population on this planet within a couple of generations. Does this make me an eco-fascist? If we cant do it voluntarily than obviously our collective human culture will either die off from natural events or we will create a human control mechanism that will impose itself as an authority. This may lead us down the road toward fascism. Maybe it will be called compassionate fascism? Sounds like one could make a political campaign out of that! Why not, let's have a little fascism to set us straight.
Do I think any of this will happen in our lifetimes? No I don't. Do I think we will be reigned in by natural events correcting our unsustainable population. Yes I do. Do I think we can avoid this through technology or politics? No I don't. Is the situation therefore hopeless? No it isn't.
Why? Because in the process of our decline toward collapse due to over population and resource depletion we are actually undergoing a cultural evolution that, being global in scale, will instill in the survivors a powerful cultural meme that will be embedded in our future religeons, spirituality, economics, morals etc. We will have the paleontological evidence to reinforce these sustainable commandments for generations afterwards.
Does this mean we should just surrender ourselves to the futility of the moment and not even bother? Are we just throwing pearls before swine in trying to get the masses of humanity to understand their peril? It seems hopeless and yet it is noble to undertake every effort possible with all the passion you can muster. And in the meantime we just have to learn to decline gracefully. This is what I practice everyday. Using as little energy as possible.
In the deepest part of my intuition I do realize there is a futility here in trying to change our culture toward sustainability. The solution as I see it is only in the lessons learned in the suffering of the coming collapse. And I am an optimist. I deplore doomsday scenarios like the cornucopian ones that forecast continued growth and technological solutions. For what? To have 10 billion of us shopping at the mall? That's the ultimate doomer vision!
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Rigorous Intuition calls Heinberg a nazis
Quote:
Those already here should be allowed the highest quality of life permitted within a sustainable paradigm.
This is something that few take into consideration. The SLOGAN is it is my RIGHT to do as I will. Then the harvest of that action comes in. Poverty, crime etc.
Quote:
If we cant do it voluntarily than obviously our collective human culture will either die off from natural events or we will create a human control mechanism that will impose itself as an authority.
I think that it will need to be Mother Nature that will do this for us. As humans we come with TOO MUCH baggage to do it ourselves. We have the knowledge but it is obvious that knowledge is not enough. The proof of this is all around.
meme[QUOTE]
Yes, those peski mems. As someone once said "It is far easier to put something into the head than to get it out."
_________________ Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
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