Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: THE Laws of Thermodynamics Thread (merged)
Ladies and Gentlemen: We talk a lot about geophysics, politics, hopes of new enrgies etc. But it seems to me that we have little understanding about the laws of thermodynamics in our forums.
My concern is, that a lot of the alternative energy sources and uses of energy described and discussed here have the same limitations as the existing ones: the laws of thermodynamics.
These laws are valid universally, and there is no observation which would discredit them. Should we start an educational/informative page on here to bring them to a wider audience, especially us and our guests?
Best Regards _________________ It just gets better every day....
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:38 pm Post subject:
Please keep in mind: God makes the laws of the Universe, and our beloved Attorney General, John Ashcroft, is able to channel God. John also happens to be in charge of our earthly laws.
We are expecting Mr Ashcroft to hold a press conference any day. He will then announce that the laws of Thermodynamics have been overturned until further notice.
I think this is the October surprise everyone has been waiting for. The American way of life is not negotiable.
trespam: how could I, somewhere here in my little bubble I forgot about god, bush, ramsfeld, cheny and ashcroft. but you should take a spanking for that as well: forgetting about condy rice
maybe I should go and talk to the lord more often _________________ It just gets better every day....
The laws of thermodynamics apply only in closed systems, and yet is it until today not possible for physics to explain gravity for instance. It is simply considered a constant, a given. There is a very interesting web site where the basic understanding of surplus energy and potential generation therof is layed out: http://www.evert.de/indefte.htm
It is a large website with many different approaches of this subject, mostly focussing on fluid-technology as well as simple to understand mechanical systems. I suggest that you take your time before dismissing it (which you probably will unless you are willing to place the pillars of your reasoning, the laws of thermodynamics out of a closed in an open system).
The real problem when thinking about generating energy is that the human mind seems to be stuck on the process of combustion whereas relative simple mechanical systems using inertia creating surplus energy would be able to deliver "near-free" energy without depleting resources.
I have my doubts when it comes to the use of of thermodynamics. It is a very valuable tool in some fields. It greatly aids in the understanding of simple equilibriated and (as albente rightly states) closed systems.
However I feel that some here consider it as the holy grail of science. Something which explains everything.
If you work on disordered or metastable systems thermodynamics are no longer applicable. Unfortunately many of the things around us are like that. One cannot explain by mere thermodynamics why random systems have the tendency to rearrange themselves in elaborate and complex structures.
That doesn't necessarely mean that thermodynamics are incorrect. It probably is the way we use it. A system quickly can become too complicated to understand with our computing power. One has to make shortcuts and assumptions which increases the risk of an erroneous outcome.
I like to view thermodynamics as a tool for understanding the world around us. A tool which is limited by the skill of its users.
Chaos theory can be a great help in the description of these subjects. However I have always viewed chaos theory as a temporary fix, something which is usuable until something better comes along. It is hardly as well defined as quantum physics and uses some methaphysical elements which we not yet understand.
Another technique which you can use is brute force calculations or modelling. Methods like Monte Carlo simulations can be a great help in these systems. However the "Garbage in-garbage out" problem quickly arises, meaning that the correctness of your outcome greatly relies on your initial assumptions and boundary conditions.
All these methods can only be used in distinct isolated cases. Moreover these cases have to be more or less perfect from an experimental viewpoint. We obviously live in a less than perfect world which will cause a deviation from reality.
Assessing the thermodynamic properties of an alternative source or use of energy might be an interesting excercise. However you might also find that a device, which works very well from a thermodynamic viewpoint, does not do so well in reality (most carnot cycles).
On the other hand you also might find, that a device which does not seem so sensible from a thermodynamic point of view, actually works pretty well in reality.
There is no substitute for builing a device and testing it.
If you work on disordered or metastable systems thermodynamics are no longer applicable. Unfortunately many of the things around us are like that. One cannot explain by mere thermodynamics why random systems have the tendency to rearrange themselves in elaborate and complex structures.
That doesn't necessarely mean that thermodynamics are incorrect. It probably is the way we use it. A system quickly can become too complicated to understand with our computing power. One has to make shortcuts and assumptions which increases the risk of an erroneous outcome.
The basic problem of application of thermodynamics seems to be this: "systems delimited by real or ideal boundaries". Quantum Theory put's in question the validity of any boundaries, at least Bohr and Bohm take the holistic view.
You might find Bohm's 'Wholeness and Implicate order' very interesting, especially his ideas on different orders of order and the dynamics between them. Chaos theory and then some.
The laws of thermodynamics apply only in closed systems, and yet is it until today not possible for physics to explain gravity for instance.
And they don't apply in isolated and open systems? You are saying that in space( an isolated system) and in living systems(open) you can create and destroy energy and transfer energy without a loss? Care to explain yourself. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
One cannot explain by mere thermodynamics why random systems have the tendency to rearrange themselves in elaborate and complex structures.
For instance? _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
smiley quote:
Quote:
One cannot explain by mere thermodynamics why random systems have the tendency to rearrange themselves in elaborate and complex structures.
It's called non-equilibrium thermodynamics. No mystery here. I covered this at length in one of my threads.
Living systems can never obtain an equilibrium state while they are alive because that would entail death. They maintain this "steady state" by feeding off the available energy around them. Matter and energy must continue to flow through them or they die. Fee flow of energy, rather than entropy is the primary concern. Nonequilibrium thermodynamics. While nonequilibrium systems are not explained in the same way as equilibrium systems, they do conform to the broad imperative of 2nd Law. So I think my agruments hold water in the broad sense. The rate of entropy is just different. Splitting hairs does little to take away the import of the message does it? _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
`Negentropy', as stored mobilizable energy in a space-time structured (organized) system, can be intuitively understood as follows. In an equilibrium system, energy is fixed, which in turn fixes the population of energy levels characteristic of the temperature of the system. In a nonequilibrium system such as the organism, energy is stored over all space-time domains. For a given temperature, the energy stored is no longer fixed, but on account of efficient coupling, becomes transferred to ever larger space-time domains (starting from the photon trapped in photosynthesis, or the energy in food) until all characteristic domains are equally populated. This implies that the organism itself has no preferred levels, its activities spanning the `quantum' to `classical', from the `microscopic' through `mesoscopic' to the `macroscopic' in a quasi-continuum of self-similar patterns.
I love what is going here. It confirms my old theory, that folks which do not understand thermodynamics become laywers, medical doctors or turn into religion/metaphysics, priests, gurus etc, or even politicians. This is why I am against caps on liability and malpractice, I am tired of paying for other folks Fark-ups, or people's believe in a magic something, sort of the perpetuum mobile which was quoted in this topic. Sounds like folks do the old witches test: if she can swim, she is a whitch and needs to be burned on the stake, if she cannot and drowns, she was clearly innocent
I know that you old timers on this site are tired of this topic, but this discussion shows that we need a "thermodynamics for dummies" section. Barnes and Nobles makes a shitload of money on the whatever for dummies section, so we should do it for good will.
Old Signature: It just gets better every day
New one: Celebrate the new dark age with us, calculate the irony with someone you can trust.
Or: You think the dark age is over, never mind it just starts
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