Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Yes
42%
[ 16 ]
No
47%
[ 18 ]
America wasn't screwed up
10%
[ 4 ]
Total Votes : 38
Author
Message
oowolf Expert
Joined: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 1257 Location: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
Can someone explain "legitimate suffering " (a la Jung) as opposed to what? Illegitimate suffering?
My direct ancestors were stripped of their lands and most of their possessions and sent to the Americas, in 1746, and dumped off for joining Bonnie Prince Charlie in his failed attempt to free Scotland from English rule.
By the 1760's my direct ancestor, James Finley, became the first white man to live at what is now the city of Spokane, WA. He married the daughter of the chief of the Kootenai Tribe. One of their children, Jacques Raphael Finley was David Thompson's guide.
That's why there are so many Salish/Kootenai with the name "Finley". A name that ironically, in old Scottish, means "of a pale complection".
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
my 3rd and 4th grade history classes had alot of iroqoius history and culture tied into it. We all built a model long house each out of natural forest products. I got an A-, becuase the Iroquios did not believe in perfection. Our constitution was molded from the Iroquois constitution. Well of course our early history was brutal. the old world was overpopulated and starving. the last continent was a feeding frenzy. Things happen.Of course the dutch and english were capitalists with breeding rates much higher than the indians. It was a clash of opposite cultures. to condemn them while not being there is emotional insanity. and yes slaughter was evident. the indians went wacko really when there lifesupport systems were becoming polluted and destroyed. I would have fought back as well and killed babies and women en mass. I read some daily journals of the area I grew up in in the hudson river. the indians in that valley helped the whites alot and that is easily found out through research. The slaughter started when the whites let there cows ruin the pristine waters of the Rondout . cows were found filled with arrows. this began systematic cleansing of the valley. Of course our white for fathers had puritanical beleifs. they were godsend and capitalists. It was THEIR continent. The Iroquios were a wonderful culture. u see to much of the indian tribes wealth was in the form of living things. In the old world their was not hardly any living thing to value becuase it was already cleaned out multiple times. so value dead things for the most part. we basically turn living things into dead things. so it was a clash.
and Is ee here its turning into a kill whity thread. Yeah the other races are so much more enlightened than us whites. Please. The indians were once proud and great with an ecological paradigm. they had to be to survive. Today no race besides the rainforest and other tribes are enlighted. they are all greedy and consumerists. we all are a product of a death march paradigm. no ones innocent anymore.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
yeah i look at my paycheck and ask "where the Fark are all these taxes going to". Disgusting. welfare and corporations basically. paying for people I do not know or care about to have babies and things. I am 100% for a revolution. I would also have no problem finding out exactly where and who these massive amounts of cash are going to. and then dragging them all into the street and having mass beatings. Cut the flow off 100%. they riot. crush the riots with extreme force. hey I am paying for these pigs. Do not expect one iota of respect towrds u and your piles of babies. MORE PROGRAMS! when it crashes its gonna crash. Its really disgusting. I would have no problem if all this money was going to environmental restoration, farming preservation, land restoration, small business rehab, housing rehab, wilderness preservation, etc.. things that responsible self sufficient caring healthy citizens take part in. But to give to multinational/multiculturalistic corporations and slovenly welfare scum I a grow enraged each day. And the devlopement industry to destroy more land and create more death sprawl as we subsidize this industry through our taxes. Its a full spectrrum rape. take our money and then destroy the last colors and beuty of the planet which sooths the soul. Horrible times for sure. evil. The day will come sooon enough when we will not be able to keep paying for these cretins. that will be the day shtf. and oil running out will not help one bit. the gubmints on the ropes looking for anything to make a profit off to keep the programs going. they got hourds dependent on the programs.
Last edited by holmes on Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 1257 Location: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
So you see my white ancestors have lived in the area I now inhabit for 250 years, and my native ancestors for 15,000 years.
(the reference to Jock's mother being Chippewa is NOT correct.
Joined: Oct 10, 2004 Posts: 476 Location: Chicago, IL
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
Quote:
Let the Latvias who now live in teh USa open a all Lativan "white " school and see the lawsuits fly....One good thing of post peak...Say bye bye to double standards! We are in the Twilight of this stupidity!
Cry, opressed white man. Cry. You own the world, but that is not enough.
Quote:
Is ee here its turning into a kill whity thread.
Kill Whitey. My favorite phrase in the history of language.
EDIT: Before/If I get jumped. Please don't take this post too seriously. Kill Whitey is one of my favorite phrases because it sounds so funny.
I do, however, find the quote about the all-white school hilarious. It's fun hearing about how burdened some white people think they are. _________________ "Abortion doctors aren't baby killers. They're life un-ruiners"
Last edited by jesus_of_suburbia on Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
holmes wrote:
and Is ee here its turning into a kill whity thread. Yeah the other races are so much more enlightened than us whites. Please. The indians were once proud and great with an ecological paradigm. they had to be to survive. Today no race besides the rainforest and other tribes are enlighted. they are all greedy and consumerists. we all are a product of a death march paradigm. no ones innocent anymore.
My point is not racial. It is about life ways. In the same way that there was a clash between the Indigenous and the Imperialist life-ways in the Americas, Europe had an earlier intraracial clash of lifeways which culminated in the Inquisition millions of people dead for their belief in the old ways. It's just longer ago and harder to find reliable info about.
And my point is not to romanticise or glorify the past. My point is that humanity is at a crossroads. The path we are on is leading us ever more obviously towards our own extinction. But we don't have to stay on that path. I believe that the only way to understand your current situation is to study history. Things exist as they do today because of what happened yesterday. Also peoples mistaken understandings of the past often leads them to the same self defeating conclusions and actions generation after generation. As Orwell said "Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past." So I think Malcolm X is right on. To understand our current situation and have any hope of changing our future, we have to try to understand history.
That is my interest in debunking the sarcastic nitemare that is the American dream. If people understand what the pilgrims were really all about, then maybe that can be a begining towards understanding what George Bush and McWorld are all about. Maybe by understanding how we as a species went wrong, we can figure out how to go right.
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 470 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:30 am Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
smallpoxgirl wrote:
It is about life ways. In the same way that there was a clash between the Indigenous and the Imperialist life-ways ..,
Please don't quote Orwell and serve up this kind of half baked multicultural mythology.
If you respect history, you cannot Ignore the fact that "Indigenous lifeways" were "imperialist lifeways".
The Iroquois very skillfully manipulated relationships with the Europeans to gain control of the trade outlets for beaver pelts. They posessed a unity and sense of purpose unmatched by any native rivals, and they used these attributes to capture prime hunting lands and eventually controlled nearly the entire great lakes basin. They did this for the trade goods that Beaver Pelts could provide.
Kainerekowa only applied to other Iroquois, so they committed genocide and ethnic cleansing against numerous competitors whom they shrewdly isolated and conquered one by one: Algonkin, Huron, Montagnais, Pequot, Sokoki, Erie, Susquehannocks, Mahican, Wappingers, Potawatomi, Fox, Sauk, Mascouten, Shawnee, Kickapoo, Miami, Illinois, Osage, Kansa, Ponca, Omaha, and Quapaw ... just to name a few.
Archeological evidence suggests the western Great Lakes and Ohio Valley were rather heavily populated before contact but French explorers arriving in the area during the mid 1600's found few residents and many refugees. French missionaries arriving in Green Bay in 1658 documented the plight of 30,000 natives running from the Iroquis 'great pursuit'.
The Iroquois considered themselves Ongwi Honwi, and Iroquian speaking tribes were absorbed as second class citizens in semi slavery. Conquered tribes were offered a place on the covenant chain, but the Iroquois were arrogant unapologetically self serving..
In terms of living in harmony with the earth... that is crap too. Mohawk Sachems would sell other bands lands to the Europeans and they would have to move their cities and farmlands every twenty years as they would pollute the land and exhaust the soil. They would hunt and trap the beaver into extinction, which necessitated war without end for new hunting lands.
You can attribute this all to the corrupting influence of whitey, but you would be wrong.
Greed, prejuiduce, cruelty, inequality... all part of the native tradition.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:44 am Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
Yes,they are human beings.
Since the bias of this board runs against that species,we're well prepared to accept that any racial group,given its head,will burn,bomb and belittle any who oppose it.
So with the Haudosaune.Bastards would kill anything in their way.
What's your point? That Longfellow and J.F.Cooper were full of crap?
That ain't news.
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 470 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
First let me say, the original sin of 'we the people' was genocide against the Native Americans. I can post ad nauseum about that also if anyone is interested.
IMO, we AMERICANS can actually begin to answer for that sin around 1700, at the very end of the Beaver Wars. At that point, the Iroquois were largely defeated and placed under the protection of the British. Prior to this point, the Iroquois had done most of the killing and ethnic cleansing in the great lakes basin.
And they clearly did so for their own aggrandizement with little prompting from their european trading partners. It quite simply was anithetical to the Europenas interest to have the Iroquois consolidate that much power.
Assertions that whitey is responsible for 9 million native deaths is gross exageration and hyperbole. Smallpox was not purposely used as a wepon until the mid 18th century. The Iroquois confederacy did a lot of the killing, both direct, and indirect by driving refugees into hostile tribes or taking their land from which they derived sustinence.
In terms of the great powers arming their various indian allies, consider that the Europeans truly feared (with good reason) the power of the Indian tribes with whom they traded. It was not truly in their best interest to Arm the Indians with muskets. At a few key junctures, the Indians demanded these weapons and the genie was out of the bottle. I think it would be a disingenous (racist ?) to underestimate the political savvy of the Iroquois before this point (1700) as they held their cards to close to the vest and manipulated the Europeans to their benefit. Smallpox and a two front war finally took them down and that can largely be attributed to overreaching on their part.
OK, my points (and I can only speak to the eastern tribes of North America):
Blaming whitey for the ENTIRE Indian Genocide is factually incorrect.
Assuming that natives lived with balance with each other is factually incorrect.
Assuming that natives did not commit all the sins we later did is factually incorrect. The had slaves, they had an economically stratified society, they were greedy and self serving, they were violent, they were ignorant... all the traits we loath in ourselves.
Indians were not deep environmentalists. They were few in number and did not have the technology to degrade their environment at a fast pace. That is why their environmental footprint was so small.The only reason native americans did not kill more people or degrade the environment faster is because they did not have the technology. We should not hold them up some kind of example of harmonic balance with gaia or whatever.
No amount of nostalgia or revisionist sophistry can change these facts.
Nature is indifferent to morality. Man is a part of nature. Rather than deny our nature, we need to fear the dark depths of our souls.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
I agree with most of what you say.We could quibble about dates: e.g.the troubles the Tuscarora had with white settlers in the Carolinas after welcoming them in the 1600's.
But,in the main, the Iroquois followed the genetic code and welded up as good a defensive/pro Iroquois strategy as they could,slaughtering any that might weaken them.
So it's true the big fish eat the little fish and the white man's technology was so much bigger the Injuns had to go.
But instead of just recounting the old Jared Diamond paradigm,why not talk about our fascination with these brutes?In one sense.North American history can be seen as a series of 'what ifs' or 'if only'. There is more to the Indian tale than their role as corporate lackeys.Why is it that this one group stands out so clearly amongst other tribes? Their sophisticated politics,their war prowess,their religion and agriculture,made them the envy of of most indigenous and many immigrant leaders.What's up with that?
Your point about environmentalism is too harsh a view IMHO. Left on their own,the natives were a more self regulating society than whites ever were.Their religions insist on reverence for nature as the sustainer of life.The rapacious trapping of beaver was a direct result of HBC pressure to bring in the fur.If you consider how they managed to guide the development of wild corn to being a sustainable crop,you get an idea of the patience and ingenuity they bring to the table.Remarkable.
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 470 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
Militia with the Colonel Sullivan remarked that they had never seen such corn as they were burning when they destroyed the Haudensaunee towns and castles. And the quality of the towns was also much better than the colonial settlements. But with the proper inducements, they would trash it all. A few steel knives, tobacco, whiskey... Just like us.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: American/Indian History
well Tom Brown the famous tracker who was tuaght by an apache might have a different view of the Indians. according to the journals and the experience I have on the ground. the indians placed alot of value on living things. also believing that they all were these balnced environmentalists is a bleeding heart fantasy. Human nature. They were hunters. they killed. they also knew hunger, thirst and stavation well. This made them protect and value the herds, crops, water sources and flocks, etc.. much more than the europen cultures. pre contact. whatever happend post contact cannot be compared. Things were set in motion and all changed. They were defiantley not prepared for the mass of humanity that followed. But all I have to do is observe just one "law" they had. They did not crap, piss or live near their water sources. we flush and dump into them. still.
Our rivers turned to crap with the arrival of the europeans. Just this is closer to an ecological paradigm. Our rivers are vile now. The rondout was so clear J. Burroughs used to describe it as crystal, cold and transluscent. it is now a vile superfund site. So Albeys argument that they were no different than the europeans at the time is false. Lets see also the council fires area up in syracuse. It is now layers and layers of mercury byproducts and lake onandaga has the highest level of mercury in the country. Cousin has been studying it for years now. I fish it and I wouldnt eat a mouthfull. So human nature is human nature but pre contact it was whole different ballgame. Sure brutal stuff. but to say that the indians had no ecological paradigm is false. now u want to talk about today. i work with 2 reservations. the leaders are corrupt and racist and there surely arent any cheif josephs or crazy horses anymore. and yes with the massive increase in popualtion the beavers and all the animals were driven to near extinction. with the arrival of the capitalist fur trade the indians were right along with the slaughter. The iroquois wiped out the hurons and they also enslaved many. But on a magnitude and scale pre contact cannot be compared with post contact. Thats why when u read journals of the last leaders of the indians u hear much sadness as they observed things that they could not have imagined pre contact. Thats why I say we are all guilty now.
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