Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Conquering oil addiction
I realized last night that one of the problems with talking about oil addiction is that almost nobody has ever done anything about it. We need a 12 step program to deal with it. "I am powerless against the power of oil. I need help." I am only half joking. When I talk to people about the things we have done to quit about half of our fossil fuel use they are amazed. Most people think that there's nothing that they can do, so they keep consuming. Here is a short web photo album of what we have done. I figure we have cut our fossil fuel consumption by between a third and a half with no real change in lifestyle. We live in a regular house and drive regular cars. We didn't spend much to do these things. It is possible!
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1281 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
I heard recently, it is more effective to eat green (locally produced organic produce, little to no meat) than to drive green. All families can become mostly vegetarian and eliminate excess consumption of oil-based products without reducing true quality of life. Its just a matter of wanting to bad enough to make the effort. _________________ Kind regards, Katkinkate
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
If this question is just about gasoline, that is one thing, but I wasn't sure if you also meant things that you buy that are made from petroleum derivatives, plastic junk, etc.
Or having to use natural gas/other methods you MUST use to heat the house because of living in an urban area. (If I could heat with wood, pellets, etc. I would, however, there are problems with code violations in the city limits.)
So, I don't quite understand the total breadth of your question...? Can you let us know?
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
Revi wrote:
I realized last night that one of the problems with talking about oil addiction is that almost nobody has ever done anything about it. We need a 12 step program to deal with it. "I am powerless against the power of oil. I need help." I am only half joking. When I talk to people about the things we have done to quit about half of our fossil fuel use they are amazed. Most people think that there's nothing that they can do, so they keep consuming. Here is a short web photo album of what we have done. I figure we have cut our fossil fuel consumption by between a third and a half with no real change in lifestyle. We live in a regular house and drive regular cars. We didn't spend much to do these things. It is possible!
Problem is, within a few years, all that conservation is eclipsed by new demand by the growing population. And somebody's life style changed as the loss of sales impacted their bottom line. Waste employs millions.
I'm not saving we shouldn't employ these meassures, but we must be realistic about the consequences to our "business as usual". _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1632 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:29 am Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
You miss the point I think Montequest. Yes of course a little personal conservation ain't gonna stop the inertia ball of population growth, rising Asian demand, etc, but it will create the impetus for people to carve out a different type of life more easily when the shortages and exploding costs begin.
If we can depend less on petroleum through biking, switching to wood heat, gardening. eating more locally, taking mass transit, stopping buying excess "stuff", we will be able to handle the world a tad better down the road.
It won't solve the problem, but then again, my belief is that nothing will...no government moonshot program (that will harm more than help), no market incentives, no individual conservation efforts ("It may be a sign of personal virtue..." ---Dick Cheney).
So now's the time to get off the oil , not out of a desire for true societal transformation, but out of a desire for personal and local community survival.
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
thuja wrote:
You miss the point I think Montequest. Yes of course a little personal conservation ain't gonna stop the inertia ball of population growth, rising Asian demand, etc, but it will create the impetus for people to carve out a different type of life more easily when the shortages and exploding costs begin.
If we can depend less on petroleum through biking, switching to wood heat, gardening. eating more locally, taking mass transit, stopping buying excess "stuff", we will be able to handle the world a tad better down the road.
Oh no, I don't miss the point at all. Switching to conservation is a self-induced recession curtailing economic activity. The purchase of "excess stuff" is somebody's livelyhood. There is no "waste" or "excess" in a capitalistic system that employs people to sell that waste and excess.
The point that people miss is that we can't continue to do what we do and do it just less so.
It's capitalism or a habitable planet -- you can't have both
Quote:
Capitalism is not sustainable by its very nature. It is predicated on infinitely expanding markets, faster consumption and bigger production in a finite planet. And yet this ideological model remains the central organising principle of our lives, and as long as it continues to be so it will automatically undo (with its invisible hand) every single green initiative anybody cares to come up with.
Link _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
Are you using capitalism or jevon's paradox as an excuse for not doing anything? Should we just lie on the ground and wait for the world to end? Efficiency doesn't hurt. You just use less. We are clever monkeys. We can figure this out! It just looks hopeless if you aren't willing to try.
Joined: Dec 03, 2005 Posts: 657 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
There was no 4th response to your poll Revi.
4. No. The average family can't cure their oil addiction.
Sorry to be all "doomer" or whatever. The average family would have to remove themselves from the modern world and join an austire Amish/Hutterite community because these are the only communites I know in the northern hemisphere living as far from oil consumption and modern oil-driven economies as possible. Even these are probably not 100% free. There may be other places in the southern hemisphere in the 3rd world completely free from oil products or economies, but they are very few if any. So, no. Most do not realistically consider these as options.
If you had asked "can the average family try to reduce their oil addiction", then obviously yes, but cure it, definitely not IMO. _________________ "Ninety percent of everything is crap."
-Theodore Sturgeon
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
I had "no, the average family can't do anything" on the poll originally, but it didn't get posted for some reason. Anyway, I agree with you. There is no way to completely give oil up. It's like giving up food. We can go on a diet. The maybe option seems to be winning anyway. I just wanted to throw the option of doing something out there. It's fun to see what people think. I know that the odds of survival are slim, but I prefer to think positive and do things to improve our chances.
I like the analogy to the Titanic. We have already hit the iceberg and the lower classes are locked under the deck. The rich are already off on the lifeboats and us middle class are on the tilting back deck listening to the band. I figure I'll tie a bunch of deck chairs together to make a raft. If we are really all doomed I will be able to watch the show in relative comfort. I might even make it through. Who knows?
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
Great article by Robert Newman, Montequest. I agree with everything that he says. We need a local economy to get through this. There is no other way. As the dinosaurs fell the little mammals did better. Big capitalism may be dead anyway. They just don't know it yet. Look at GM, Ford, etc. It's the little companies that are making it now.
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1632 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
Quote:
Oh no, I don't miss the point at all. Switching to conservation is a self-induced recession curtailing economic activity. The purchase of "excess stuff" is somebody's livelyhood. There is no "waste" or "excess" in a capitalistic system that employs people to sell that waste and excess.
The point that people miss is that we can't continue to do what we do and do it just less so.
[b]It's capitalism or a habitable planet -- you can't have both
I generally agree with you Monte although I would say that it is possible to have small scale capitalism with a very limited population that would go through natural boom and bust cycles without it eventually destroying the planet.
The planet has seen two phases of overwhelming human growth- one with the agricultural revolution and the second with the industrial revolution and its associated development of coal and then oil burning technologies. These are the two big picture developments that have led to potential ecocide.
Capitalism, if you want to call it that, has occured with pre-agrarian societies in the form of trade of goods and accumulation of wealth; even land ownership. These societies did not endager the health of the planet.
However, if what you're talking about is modern day globalised capitalism, its systems of wealth accumulation, interest and debt, along with the machines and power to harvest resource bases at unprecedented levels- I definitely agree its not tenable.
I do not believe we are going to be able to change this globalised capitalistic system until it no longer functions and we go through an unprecedented "bust", i.e. die-off.
But, on the small scale, we can pare down our own individual/family/community needs in preparation for this "bust". Sort of like a glutton who eyes the fact that the feast on the table is starting to dwindle so he slows down and eats a lot slower. The feast will still end and he will have to go through a long hungry spell, but he's preparing by watching what he eats.
Joined: Jan 29, 2006 Posts: 309 Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Conquering oil addiction
Good job, Levi! Despite my avatar, oil-free still eludes me. I like to proclaim that with an activist message on my back, while riding a bike though. If it encourages passing motorists to get on their bike, scale down or buy a hybrid; I figure it's doing its job.
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