Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
thanks for the information about "Bow and Arrow", I guess I can get them much easier then a gun or a rifle.
Of course you can get a gun here, but it is striktly illegal and I do not want to be sued, it is also a bit dangerous to sneak around at night and try to find a dealer who will sell you one.
But If guns here are illegal, I do not expect that every one wil have a gun here when the bad days come.
if you are in the US given their gun laws i feel sorry for you. If the social system breaks there will be a lot of desperate people and lots of guns around.
Joined: Oct 20, 2004 Posts: 520 Location: The Land of Do-As-You-Please
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject:
Quote:
The only thing what is missing are somekind of weapons because here in Germany there is almost no legal way to get firearms, even knifes with blades which are longer than 10 cm (4 inch) are also count as weapons.
I am sure that some types of guns are legal in Germany. You probably have to go through a long procedure and get the right licenses and permits, but I'm sure it can be done.
I expect that guns like sporting shotguns and .22 rifles would be relatively easy to get, once you have joined a shooting club, got background checks from the police, etc etc. There's probably a shooting club fairly close to where you live, you should talk to them about it. Any kind of gun is better than none at all....
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3429 Location: California, USA
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:19 am Post subject:
My personal plan: Intentional community, egalitarian & moderate in nature. Food: farming (field & row crops, rabbits, chickens, perhaps goats, perhaps dairy), a certain amount of hunting as needed. My primary skill sets are in engineering fields (look up my other posts for more on this). Defense strategy is common-sense preparedness, good relations with local gov't & law enforcement, and the willingness to stand and fight rather than let bandits chase us off.
Energy production strategy is based on utilization of available renewables, and efficient design of infrastructure. Technology level will be appropriate, i.e. getting the most utility out of energy supplies where possible, substituting human and animal power where possible. Since I'm primarily a telecoms engineer, I can say with 100% certainty that we'll have a good reliable internal telephone system & computer network.
We plan to have good relations with the outside community, including positive trade relations in the form of small businesses operating locally. Location will be northern California, anyone who's interested is encouraged to write.
Re. Arcoun: Do Not Flee! Once you abandon your home base, you're a "drifter" which means you're a target. The safest bet is to prevent becoming a target in the first place, which can be achieved through a combination of good outside relations and good intel. And then design your property to maximize defensive advantages. And then be prepared to fight for your life if necessary, but chances are it won't be necessary.
Emacs, re. Germany & Guns: The need for firearms for self-defense is proportional to the prevalence of firearms among those who would attack you. Yes, the badguys have a higher number of guns per capita than the average citizens, but consider the relative crime statistics, and you'll see that your probability of being attacked with firearms is lower in societies where firearms are less accessible.
Meanwhile, get those Olympic type bows & arrows, and practice archery as a sport, and practice until you can do it in your sleep. Here in the US, since firearms are so ubiquitous, we have a bigger problem with badguys having them, and therefore a greater need for law-abiding citizens to have them. But the US is an exception to the general pattern in the world, so don't make the assumption that what's necessary here is also necessary elsewhere.
One more thing to do in Germany: Join your local Green organizations, and start persuading the other members to support nuclear fission! You don't want to close down the reactors you have, and you do need to build more, as we all do, everywhere. You also need a nuclear fuel recycling program, to avoid "peak uranium" in about 40 years. (Speaking as somone with experience in the wind industry: we need all the climate-clean energy we can get; wind power can expand by a factor of 10 to 20, ditto solar and other obvious renewables, but the fact remains that we still need nuclear fission.)
Stepka, the Amish are *highly* insular, they *do not* generally like to socialize or conduct economic relations with people who are not full members of their community. And as far as joining is concerned, you'd have an easier time joining a Native American tribe as a full member, it's that difficult. In fact, you can probably learn as much by hanging out with any traditional Native peoples in your area, but be careful to avoid coming across as "another whitey who's come along to rip off the Red Man's culture." Humility goes a long way in that regard.
Newellm: If you want to move back to California drop me a line, but realistically it sounds like you & yours are all set. However I would strongly advise not advertising your love of certain plants, that is like painting a target on your backside. Discretion is good:-).
There are three legal ways to get a weapon here in Germany.
1. You have to give an evidence to the police that you are a person which is threatend by other people because you are a prom or extremly rich.
Well I am none of that and so I wont get a weapon this way.
2. You join a shooting club
Well after that you are allowed to get a small pistol like Walter P1 9x19 mm and/or a rifle with 5 mm (called small-caliber). No automatic or semiautomatic weapons are allowed. If you have passed the background checks by the police you are allowed to get the weapons and the ammunitions, but now comes the best part: You are not allowed to take weapon and ammunition togehter with you. That means you store the weapon at your home and the ammo in the shooting club.
I guesss that does not make sense to my plans.
3. You become a freetime hunter.
For this you have to take courses and doing difficult examinations (only 50% pass the examinations). Afterwards you are allowed to get a hunting weapon which is listed in the German Hunter catalogue as a hunting weapon (shotgun with two bullets in it or a rifle with max. caliber 7.62*51 no semiautomatic and no automatic, max. 5 bullets in a magazine). Hunting rifles are no longrange weapons, because of teire construction it is not possible to hit a target with is more far away then 150 m
You are allowed to take the weapons with you but only in hunting seasons.
Joined: Oct 20, 2004 Posts: 520 Location: The Land of Do-As-You-Please
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:10 am Post subject:
German gun laws:
I thought the laws where I live are tough. The restriction on type and number are similiar, at least we can still keep ammunition as well as the firearms. Also the courses we have to do are very easy and have a 99.98% pass rate
If I was you I'd still go for it. A 9mm pistol and .22 (5.5mm) rifle are both very worthwhile. What about clay target shooting? In most countries shotguns are the least restricted kind of gun. They are also extremely useful.
The ammunition restrictions may not be such a problem. At least you have access to ammunition, at the club. You may be able to buy ammunition in other European countries, the laws are completely different in different places. For instance in France anyone over 18 can buy a blackpowder revolver or rifle without a license.
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:09 pm Post subject: Forming a community
Forming a community?
Interesting how so many discussions devolve into "I will die" and/or "Guns guns guns" dichotomy. These are all based upon scenarios preferred by the writer, and you know that in any strategic situation, you must try to correctly estimate the capabilities of your adversary. No points for winding out just a good story...
In this instance, the adversary faced is likely societal decay and any "bandit" element it produces. (IMO, we've been surviving bandits in suits for quite awhile now. The variations of banditry are and will remain complex and imaginative.)
Have you noticed how most posters assume that "bandits" will "wander" in "bands"? How have these hungry, violent, presumably urban people suddenly acquired the social (and mapreading) skills to roam the countryside as a cohesive strikeforce? Too many movies watched, you and me both.
And who can miss the racist undercurrent to it all? Not racism as "bad" but as strategically misleading. And I think that is what leads to the disproportionate assessment of such risks. My likely scenarios do not have urban populations wandering my fields at harvest time. (Unless I have a U-Pick berry farm. )
BTW, I did tactically prepare a home in the woods for defense long ago against a specific threat from some nasties, so I know how the initial feeling of vulnerability goes, but I eventually thought 60 miles distance and their laziness were also good protection. Then and now, the worst things get done to my mailbox, not to me...
Anyway, you can prepare for a scenario without discussing it to death, beyond its actual likelihood. Assign it a risk probability and prepare accordingly. Then STFU. Beyond this is self-indulgent chatter. It would be a presumptious reach into pop psychology to call it male dick-swinging behavior intended for self-assurance in a frightening time, so I won't.
(It's probably a stage people go through when considering this phase of preparation. Right?)
For example notice the proportion of talk about what type of weapon to get, vs. the stern recommendation to newbies to seek out the highest courses in safety training in any weapons acquired. Conscientious gun owners will make this their FIRST recommendation.
Me, I KNOW I am not sufficiently-trained, and so there will not be a weapon/ammunition combination in my home until I and family are fully trained.
In the absence of that safety level, the gun owner's "I've got 'em in my house, and never had an accident" parallels the SUV driver's "I fill up my tank every week, and we haven't run out yet." Accidents waiting to happen.
I'll never forget the stories I heard of soldiers home from Vietnam on leave shot by their father when they came in the house at night. Some very stupd people own guns, and smart people do stupid things sometimes. It doesn't take much...
Got kids? Are you ready to introduce them to a climate of gun-owning with the authoritative training that Fathers more often provided in past times? Or will it be the latchkey kids with friends coming over after school?
My nearest analogy to such a lawless time is the Old West we see in the Western movie genre. There may be an echo here of that time, and its expression of something in the American character. But we know that the actual outlaw numbers were way less than in the movies, but yes, the settlers did keep guns around. They just probably did not talk about them so much, and compare them so obsessively with their neighbors'. Capiche?
Anyway, when you go to form your community, consider that most of the people you find who are PO-aware will have one of these or some other excessive tendency they are working through. Will you really find sudden common cause with them through agreement on the single point of a future scenario?
I would take a long, long time to get to know somebody before I let them live under the same roof, and have access to my plans, tools, and assets. Sorry, I wish it were otherwise, but... been there, and you're going to have ENOUGH to deal with, the more so the worse things get.
It took me YEARS to learn which people merited my trust, and which were additional TAKERS just in better costume. I'm still not sure of my judgment in that regard, and now believe that appropriate distances are a good framework in which to discuss these preparations.
Local PO discussion groups would probably be the starting point of community, but they still face the location question, if they are not already in the area that members want to live in. Perhaps they could agree to an in-town/rural dual-residence community while seeing how things shake out?
I would also think that learning to individually cultivate a Low Profile would be a worthwhile topic available to us through the anonymity of the Internet...
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:33 pm Post subject: It'll never happen
It'll never happen. After doing alot of thinking about various scenarios similar to this I think there would be too many opportunities for me, I'd never get that lucky.
Sorry I didn't read all of this thread (read the first page this morning).
Hey! It's my first post here!
Joined: Oct 25, 2004 Posts: 378 Location: Southern California Desert
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject:
Well hemp and marijuana could be the new forms of trade.
You could fuel, fabric, plastics and a myriad of other materials from this plant.
As for marijuana, I would mix it with some other "calm-down" drugs.
I would then transport the product via covered wagon or helicopter (gas turbines can burn bio-diesel extremely well) to the law enforcement of local communities in exchange for manpower.
This intoxicant mixture would be good to quell mass mobs and neutralize a horde of Holnists.
Holnists, like those ones from "The Postman".
As for living and growing my fuels/food, I would choose one of those deep caverns.
I could always install artificial lighting and heat sources of some type of means down there.
I hope you mean "The Postman," the BOOK, not the movie!
Seriously, I think my city could be a good community, assuming most of its current 92,000 people will be fleeing when the house of cards comes tumbling down...except for the SMALL problem of there being a regional FEMA office here. Relocalization would have a bit of a hard time getting underway under the eyes of a branch of the Shadow Government....
There ARE Peak Oil Meet-Up groups around the country, if that is what the above poster was referring to. Unfortunately, in my city, only 2 people have expressed an interest in starting one--and I'm one of them! Hoping all the oil price things and Iraq quagmire might stir up some interest after the election...or at least, after the holidays. I don't know what I'd do without this board--there's no one to talk to here--
For this you have to take courses and doing difficult examinations (only 50% pass the examinations). Afterwards you are allowed to get a hunting weapon which is listed in the German Hunter catalogue as a hunting weapon (shotgun with two bullets in it or a rifle with max. caliber 7.62*51 no semiautomatic and no automatic, max. 5 bullets in a magazine). Hunting rifles are no longrange weapons, because of teire construction it is not possible to hit a target with is more far away then 150 m
This is the way to go. I disagree w/ the idea that the "hunting rifle" in 7.62 X 51 (.308) is only a 150 meter weapon. A good bolt action rifle in this calibre is good for 500 meters (at least), assuming you have a good gun and match grade ammo w/ a good scope. (ziess , khales etc.)
In Europe, you cant go wrong with an Austrian Styer, a German Blaser rifle is pretty accurate, but heavy (also make sure it has been refited with non rusting parts, or is brand new as these had a "recall" @ two years ago). CZ also makes pretty good rifles for the money.
I'm sorry to hear about the insaine laws in your country, but I hope you succeed in legaly aquiring a good .308 (7.62 X 51). _________________ With Love to all, and Malice to none.
"A people is conquered not when they lose a war, but when they adopt the song and customs of the enemy"
-Chacham S
Permanently_Baffled:
My skepticism is based entirely on the fact that it would just be too much good news for me. Hopefully the government would have less control and local communities more, but this would work in my favor.
And if most people could only travel as far as they can go on foot?
It's surprising how much ground I could cover in a day on horseback.
I'm sorry, a more primitive lifestyle would just suit me too well.
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