Belarus doing democracy

lutherquick · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Belarus doing democracy

I am a US citizen and been in Belarus 8 times in two years.
And I must say, they have democracy.

There is nothing you can't do in Belarus that you can in America, nothing.
Cindy Sheehan can't even protest in front of the Whitehouse, so get real America.

America demands the right to create revolutions in other countries with NGO money infusions, but we squawk and cry when a Chinese millionaire donates $100k to Clinton with a Chinese NGO. America demands the right to own Russian oil and energy assets but gets all nervous when China bids for American companies...

So far, US hegemony is cracking and beginning a reversal. In a nut shell, few in the world "trust" America. Most governments and financial institutions now see that all this US delusional foreign policy is just to expand her monetary policy for the sake of hegemony which will continue this great subsidy to the US economy and consumer.

And Belarus is needed for transferring this in the from of "AID" to the American economy, even if small, eventualy cracking Russia would yield big subsidies to the US economy, and thus creating more illusions of US competitiveness... In the US State Department's eyes, Belarus is needed as Ukraine and other former Soviet states are need. To encircle Russia, you know, all that America gas and OIL under Russia's feet, that's belongs to America (I'm sarcastic for those that can't tell).

Do Belarusian's really want to follow Ukraine and Georgia?
Not if they want to continue to prosper.

There are clichés out there like:
"Russia and Belarus need a colored revolution".
"Russia and Belarus need a Yushenko or Saaskavilli".
"Kasyanov will do for Russia what Yushenko did for Ukraine".

Well, Yeltsin was the Yushenko for Russia, and it turned Russia into a mess. With the US, Yeltsin was able to give his people 10 plus years of misery. Now that Ukraine and Georgia have Dr Rice experiments and Bush internships applied on them, they too are in a mess and are about were Russia was back in 1991. Ukraine and Georgia both have higher corruption and lower economic growth under "bright ideas" from the America.

All this fighting and squabbling at the global political level is all about hegemony. Partly so that America can transfer "peak oil" suffering to others such as Ukrainians and Byelorussians. As energy becomes more expensive, the fights will be stronger. You think "wmd in Iraq" was a fairy tale? Or Bush eluding that "Saddam did 9/11". Wait till oil reaches $100 brl soon, the US will be very creative at that point.

My experience in Belarus says that these people have seen how American interventionism screwed up Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Iran in 1953, Iraq today, and countless other screw ups.

Nope... I think it's America that needs a Yushenko, It's America that needs perestroika and glasnost. America stands there and talks about democracy and human rights, but has her own atrocities in places like Gitmo and prisons of Iraq, let alone the a history of scalping Indians, enslaving Blacks, and burning witches, you know, for democracy...

Yea RIGHT, that's it... it's for Democracy...

Truth is, democracy can't survive without a good economy. And if energy is expensive then America will lose that economy and democracy. The richer forms of democracy will have a higher chance of fruition nearest energy sources (Russia), despite failures such as Saudi Arabia in marshaling said wealth into democratic strength.

Belarus and Russia will continue on their democracy together, and it's all about energy. Eat your heart out America, the Gallop Poll already says Lukashenko is trusted. Handing out dollar bills to Byelorussians doesn't impress them... Gallop says he will win, doing to Lukashenko what Bush did to Chavez is pointless... America needs to look at her own problems. Maybe someday Ukraine will join Russia's modest hegemony and thus enjoy low priced gas and a great economy.

sch_peakoiler · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 15, 2006 Posts: 555

What was the thing you liked the most and that you can do in Belarus, what you can not do in US?

UIUCstudent01 · Intermediate Crude Joined: Mar 10, 2005 Posts: 894

blukatzen · Heavy Crude Joined: Apr 11, 2005 Posts: 437

[quote="Where the hell is Belarus?[/quote]

East of Poland, West of Russia, South-East of Lithuania, North of Ukraine, (actually a good sized portion of Belarus was affected by Chernobyl).

Russian_Cowboy · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Belarus doing democracy

lutherquick · Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Belarus doing democracy

Russian_Cowboy,

"puppet government " ???

What are you nuts?
Why is it America dreams of controling Belarus?

Puppet gov's like Ukrain or Georgia, are they better?
Most Belarusians people don'y want what the US offers, they see Ukraine and Geopgia and want to to aling themselves with a natual partner...

The fvck give a sh!t about America?
Nobody with brains !!!

America has zipo to offer, not oil, no gas, no future no exports, only shiny worthless dollars... Sh!t, North Korea prints dollar better than America...

Nope...

I think Belarus will go with it's natural partner, Russia...
Puppet my azz, Ukraine is a puppet, Georgia is a puppet, and Russia was a puppet under Yeltsin...

People need to work, and stop looking for the easy short term free ride... Aligning with America will give nothing to Belarus... With Russia, it's work but a future, with America it's friggen Enron board meeting and a damn pot smoke fest...

Yup, Iraq is peaceful, what a damn joke, and the common Belarusian citzen knows America and Bush as as worthless and stupid as a bag of rocks...

pogoliamo · Heavy Crude Joined: Dec 31, 2004 Posts: 114

Russian_Cowboy, dont you think the western media is trying to spin the facts by presenting the recent political sabotage in Ukraine and Georgia as their "new reality" and revolution.

False impression!

We all know these nations share centuries of common history, culture, religion, ethics, and the countries are situated in position which makes them natural partners. The USOFA has made a huge mistake by investing into the political sabotages in Ukraine and Georgia. Yet another silly BushCo fiasco and the Russian sphere of influence will be soon re-established and re-assured.

Thank your smart leader for accelerating the pace of the events.

sch_peakoiler · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 15, 2006 Posts: 555

Hi Luther,

you probably did not see my question to you among other posts, but I do not mind repeating myself.

"What was the thing you can do in Belarus, what you can not do in the US of A?"

master_rb · Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Belarus doing democracy

sch_peakoiler many things you can do, anyway I lived in Poland under communism, as long as you didn't go against goverment you could do pretty much anything you wanted, drink in public, yell, screem whatever, cops wouldn't come unless something serious was going on, there were none of those stupid law suits over money like here in America, lately I had a car accident, not my fault though and I get everyday letters offering me to "get my money" from lawyers, I refused them because there were no injouries so as long as I get my car fixed I'm fine but I know that someday someone is going to go after me when I make a mistake on the road to get money and I will have to deal with all the garbage, so to tell you the truth I was feeling much safer in Poland about the future over there, not bright future with a lot of opportunities but there were no worries at least

anyway like everything there is good side and bad, nothing's perfect, I only presented one side which you asked for so this is not the whole picture but I hope I answered your question, at least partially

Such · Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Belarus doing democracy

I've also been to Belarus many times in the past 5-6 years. I have very close relatives who live there now. To say it's a democracy is a bit naive at best. Certainly, people can do whatever they want for the most part, except try to cause trouble.

Belarus has an independent currency from Russia... Belarussian roubles are quite different from Russian roubles.

Trust me... these elections that are happening today... well. Not that Lukashenko is all bad though. He does do what he can to support the rural population. He aligns himself with Moscow with good sense (he knows where the heating fuel comes from for winter). ANd if your a good boy, expect no trouble. BUt try to change something.

Try this... call up your friends and relatives in Belarus with an international call from the United States. Start talking with them about Lukashenko... start making fun of the man... even in jest. See how long you remain connected.

But, I'd rather see a peaceful election process than too much trouble there. I mean, I don't want to hear about people getting hurt.

Certainly, things are better economically in Belarus than 5 years ago. 5 years ago, no one could afford gasoline. Now, some people drive... but in a place like that, driving is unnecessary - they have a very good pulbic transit.
But, to say that they are prosperous is kind of a misnomer. Try living on US $250 a month, with the SAME PRICES for most goods and services. Go and try to buy yourself a pound of meat there... $7. Go to the government to get a transcript copy of your university record notarized $50. It is still very difficult to get by there.

With that said... I love going to Belarus. Its a wonderful place. I've always enjoyed my time there to visit the country and interact with the people. Minsk is a fabulous city. I'd recommend everyone go visit if you have the chance.

lutherquick · Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Belarus doing democracy

sch_peakoiler,

I'll answer you... But first, I was a republican for 21 years, I voted always for the PNAC... Why, because I like strong leaders, like Reagan, and Bush SR. I like low taxes and I like a smaller government, and I like high technology as an answer towards lowering our energy demands... Most of these ideas are core republican values... And most important, it was the republicans that really abolished slavery in America, under Lincoln...

Now look at today. The US monetary policy and foreign policy is pathetic... Our government is growing faster than cancer and we produce little for exports, and what little we do produce, needs way too much energy. The good things that worked in America, the fundamentals that aloud us to fix mistakes like Black slavery, and imperialism have all died. We now need imperialism to survive our exponential growth, we need to use everyone all over the planet... To that end, I gave up the GOP/PNAC thinking.

So, to answer your question, I would like to go and protest about Bush in front of the Whitehouse, but that's against the law. Pretty much, I can do anything in America, but don't question authority and don't point at the emperor and notice he has no clothes on.

I'll bet I can protest about Bush in Minsk.

It took 300 to 400 years for America to clean up it's act and stop with slavery, give woman the right to vote, give American Indian's some rights, and even pay for land taken from Mexico... In the end, WW2 showed how great America was...

So why is it we expect places like Ukraine or Georgia and Belarus and Russia to change so fast?
Frankly, they have decent human rights, they don't traffic woman (the US is the world's largest implementer of this), they are transitioning quite fast.

So we expect Belarus and Russia to be better than America, maybe so because they have a higher literacy rate and better education. No they aren't as clever at hegemony, or clever enough to fvck up like Bush and stand there and smile like everything is alright in Iraq/9/11/BinLaden... But, as peak oil bites hard on America, I KNOW it will be ugly, Belarus and Russia did damn good at picking up the pieces after the "Belavezha Accord". America will not be so bloodless once gas gets to $5 - $7 a gal.

lutherquick · Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Belarus doing democracy

Dear Such,

I took an old friend (79 years old) with me one time to Belarus. I was excited, and he tried to tell me to keep my mouth shut. That my friends and family here in America would label me a "commie". I saw so much potential and can see that engine starting now...

My old friend was from Denmark, he killed Nazi's in the underground during WW2. And he was brain washed that all Russia's are evil and we need to annex their property and oil, you know, for democracy...

Well, after we returned, he couldn't shut up. He was so move by the people, the hearts, the intelligence, the quality of the people of Belarus. He pretty much agrees that all this BS foreign policy right now coming out of DC is about encircling Russia to get control not just of Caspian Sea energy, but USE these kind people. If you can keep the image in the typical Belarusian that America is the center of the universe, that effort will extend dollar hegemony and will insulate America, at least enough for an edge, insolate America from peakoil pain...

Like America used so many countries, for centuries, this BS story about colored revolutions, it's all about subsidizing the US economy. Not directly about oil, but expanding America hegemony so that America can call the shots, even as America begs for energy, begs for loans, begs for raw commodities and begs for finished goods, you know, because America is so competitive (wtf?).

Anyway, the ideals that America preaches I do believe in, it's the snow job of how we bullsh!t the world that is ridiculous...

Sorry to say this, but America needs a good crash, that will give jobs to the blue collar worker again, that will allow them to build energy efficient infrastructures (asuming energy will be avail), that will make America stop with trafficking of woman from all parts of the world, and that same good crash will stop with this hypocritical, double standard BS of attacking nations over none existent WMD, stop with the financing of NGO in such away that we would not tolerate...

Russians are pretty damn smart, they see Bush's true agenda and Rice's loony foreign policy.

Lukashnko has his hands full, but he has is allegiance to his people, not the US dollar and not America. He believes in a mixed economy that includes capitalism, but state control over depleting resources like energy, and this is why he works with Russia. Democracy will be less unstable in Belarus as the economy grows and as America backs off and finds someone else to "use".

sch_peakoiler · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 15, 2006 Posts: 555

Hi lutherquick,

In America you can not protest against Bush, but can protest against Lukashenko Smile

- In Belarus you can protest against Bush, but can not protest against Lukashenko Smile

I think it is quite fair Smile

Have you checked if it is easy for an american to get a residence permit in Belarus and / or citizenship?

Russian_Cowboy · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Belarus doing democracy

MOCKBA · Heavy Crude Joined: Sep 05, 2005 Posts: 412