Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Jul 25, 2004 Posts: 681 Location: Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Australia
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
Zardoz wrote:
Sys1 wrote:
Good luck baby boomers
And everybody else. You think they're screwed? They're God's Chosen People compared to the wholesale shafting everybody who follows them is going to get. You ain't seen nothin' yet, kid. Get ready to duck.
Things have changed just a bit. The American Dream has been somewhat revised over the last few decades. Believe it or not, we were told that the biggest problem we were going to have in the future would be what to do with our leisure time. There was all kinds of scholarly speculation on how we would occupy ourselves during the long vacations we would have and the excess free hours we would enjoy every week.
Yep, we were going to see a future of 30-hour or even 25-hour work weeks, and four or five weeks of vacation would become the national standard. Automation and mechanization would create a worker's paradise where our productivity would be so incredibly high we would all live like we were semi-retired.
And we believed it, just like we believed the fairy tale that nuclear power would be so cheap we wouldn't even have electric meters on our houses. We'd all be charged a nominal little flat rate for electricity, instead.
We actually thought that life in the future would be sort of a combination of "The Jetsons" and "Ozzie and Harriet": Serene, comfortable, secure, and convenient beyond anything we could imagine.
Welcome to the real 21st century, folks: Double-deadbolt your doors, get ready for rolling brownouts and blackouts, and be glad if you're able to still find employment when you're very old, 'cause you're going to need the job.
The only thing I could disagree with in the above is the last sentence - you won't need to be "old" to be desperate to find gainful employment. Beleive me, you'll start quite young. It's happening right now. In any case - how the heck are you going to get to work, anyway?
Assuming you have fuel enough (of whatever sort) to go on some sort of mechanical conveyance, then you'd be a fool to leave your house to the tender mercies of the desperately unemployed (and probably hooked on something like crystal methamphetimine). They will note that you leave at such-and-such a time every day, returning some hours later and conclude that the best time to loot your possessions is when you're not there.
Unless they happen to fancy taking you down (possibly to harvest your internal organs, especially if you're young and healthy) in which case, when you return from your place of employ, you'll find a Death Squad awaiting you. That's the reality if we allow Peak Oil to become Peak Energy. _________________ .
"To Get Rich you have to:
Joined: Jul 25, 2004 Posts: 681 Location: Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Australia
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
Novus wrote:
jaws wrote:
peaker_2005 wrote:
And this is why, at 20, I don't expect to retire once I enter the workforce...
You can retire if you save money.
At 5% interest, saving 5000$ a year over a carreer of 40 years will generate an income of 30000$ a year forever. You live comfortably for the rest of your life and your children get 30000$ a year forever when they inherit.
How much do you pay in social security? Do you get that same deal?
That 5% interest assumes infinate growth in the consumer global capitalist system. If you understand even a tenth of the PO posts here you would know that system is at its limits now. With the realities of PO on us saving $5000 a year will leave you dirt poor after 40 years. You would be lucky if the money is worth the paper it is printed on by then. Don't be a fool and put money is your 401k or IRA cash out now and buy gold. You will never get rich with gold but atleast you will not be blindsided by the PO train wreck.
I cannot understand how anyone can think that 5% interest rate (s) will continue...we've just come through a period when ZERO percent interst rates were being talked about seriously...and they still are close-to-zero in Japan!
At one stage in Japan they were talking about NEGATIVE Interest rates. How the heck could that work? The banks give you money to take out a loan? And what happens to those who put money into the banks in their savings? Well, one assumes that their savings won't rise. So you won't be able to retire on the "interest" on your accumulated savings, because there wouldn't be any interest to retire on.
By the time Peak Oil has given paper money the hammering it so desperately needs, the paper, itself will be worth more than the "monetary value" printed on the face of it. Even if Peak Oil does not become Peak Energy, the era of interest-based "fiat currency" is over.
If we face Peak Oil squarely we *might* fix it, but we'll have to confront the fact that our Fiat Currency actually has no value. We will need to base our economy in terms of energy and it's value. Or ease or transferrence, or ease of supply.
If we don't confront that, Peak Oil might get solved (though it will be much harder) but then we'll have recurring Peak This or Peak That until we Peak ourselves off the planet or entirely out of existance.
In other words: we either fix the thing that gave us Peak Oil in the first place (excessive consumption by the ultra-rich based on an 'interest' style of accumulation of money, which is what actually gives the economy something called inflation) or else we're set to repeat this again and again and again. _________________ .
"To Get Rich you have to:
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
Novus wrote:
We could be living like that now if the world was not so greedy. In 1950 the Average American lived in a small house and only had one car. Only one out of four households owned a TV. More than half the households still had large vegetable gardens.
Personally, I cannot complain too much, I made some choices, and have not been promoted to the extent I originally expected. But, I make enough money to live a decent life. If I chose to work 60 hours a week, rather than 40 to 50, I'd be further ahead financially. But, I would have missed so much in other ways. Like working with the kids in scouting when they were young, and today having time to do some community service things that I have come to enjoy. and just having the leisure time to hop on my bike and go for a three hour spin.
My brother in law, by contrast made other choices, now he is a section leader at a major company, makes six figures, but I do not envy him one bit. He is entitled to five weeks vacation, but only takes 9 or 10 days a year. When he does, he brings his laptop to hook up to e-mails from work! They think nothing of sending him across the country at short notice to a meeting which requires him working the weekend to do a presentation.
It puzzles me that employers want to make their leaders into workaholics. They lose their perspective. They have marriage failures. And, they lose the fulfillment of being a real part of the community at large.
Being raised in the sixties, there were plenty of dads to help with the hickey por lacrosse leagues and scouts. Now, its like plucking teeth. Much of this now falls on the mothers - if they have the time. What kind of male role model does this provide the next generation?
My first manager back in the early seventies would never have fit into todays kind of management work schedule. I bet he only worked two Saturdays year to do up budgets, no extra time at work beyond that. If he needed rush jobs done, he paid staff overtime for it, he did not expect us to give away our time to the company. On the other hand, he was able to lead his curling rink, he took lots of vacation time and he enjoyed gardening in his backyard. It was just a bungalow too, but nice enough. Today, I guess he'd be considered a failure. But, unlike today, his subordinates gave their best to the company, competing to be promoted to his level. I bet a lot do not do that today with our "new" management style.
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
Novus wrote:
Don't be a fool and put money is your 401k or IRA cash out now and buy gold. You will never get rich with gold but atleast you will not be blindsided by the PO train wreck.
I didn't specify what to save your money in, only what you could do with a bare minimum of savings.
ubercynicmeister wrote:
At one stage in Japan they were talking about NEGATIVE Interest rates. How the heck could that work? The banks give you money to take out a loan? And what happens to those who put money into the banks in their savings? Well, one assumes that their savings won't rise. So you won't be able to retire on the "interest" on your accumulated savings, because there wouldn't be any interest to retire on.
Regular people don't get to borrow at the negative interest, only the government-friendly banks and funds do. As long as interest rates are pushed below the market rate by the central bank, inflation will rise. That means stocks and commodities are your best options, and especially gold.
Don't think that Peak Oil will cause interest rates to fall. Even if half the world's companies are going bankrupt, the other half will be making money like crazy. You have to pick the right players.
Even in a receding economy, someone makes money. You just have to find the right someone.
Joined: Jul 25, 2004 Posts: 681 Location: Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Australia
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
Gary wrote:
I work as a "sustainable household helper." I am self employed. I am the sole proprietor of my business.
I look at the future as just swinging from vine to vine.....
You're doing better than most. Most will look at the future as either raining stockbrokers or hanging the lawyers (swinging THEM from the vines). _________________ .
"To Get Rich you have to:
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
I considered starting my retirement in a Roth IRA at age 30. But realizing the PO threat, Im not sure now. I have invested in some silver eagles, and I know the dollar is virtually worthless at this moment, but Im just not sure now.
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:03 am Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
well ya know, as far as it all goes you would be smart to opt out of the 40/40 plan from the get go..Scale your life down, live smart, and cheap. Make sure your expenses are low so you can save all your starbucks money!..If you do it smart and don't go into a mountain of debt like most Americans buyihng useless crap and trying to keep up with the jones', you can do just fine on a lot less working and a lot more living!..Your entire life shouldn't be one huge Material trip where you have to work 60 hours a week till you die so you can afford the few meager hours a week and couple weeks vacation a year..No wonder why people are miserable!...Scale it down and you'll be happy!...
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 510 Location: Northern US
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
With both of us in our early 50's, it is a real shot in the ass. The govt predicted year that SSI (stuped crap idea) goes broke, we will turn 65. And of course Medicare is supposed to crap out within another year.
We had also been counting on my wife's state plan to pay for health ins. But, NO, they have cut us off at the knees. Major reductions and revisions to the program.
We are thinking to become expats sooner than later and relo to a nicer climate where the cost of living is much less and helath care insurance is affordable. We are close to having enough equity and saving to do this but are having a hard time making choices.
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 139 Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
ubercynicmeister wrote:
[By the time Peak Oil has given paper money the hammering it so desperately needs, the paper, itself will be worth more than the "monetary value" printed on the face of it. Even if Peak Oil does not become Peak Energy, the era of interest-based "fiat currency" is over.
If we face Peak Oil squarely we *might* fix it, but we'll have to confront the fact that our Fiat Currency actually has no value. We will need to base our economy in terms of energy and it's value. Or ease or transferrence, or ease of supply.
If we don't confront that, Peak Oil might get solved (though it will be much harder) but then we'll have recurring Peak This or Peak That until we Peak ourselves off the planet or entirely out of existance.
In other words: we either fix the thing that gave us Peak Oil in the first place (excessive consumption by the ultra-rich based on an 'interest' style of accumulation of money, which is what actually gives the economy something called inflation) or else we're set to repeat this again and again and again.
I think that this sums up the situation exactly. Money will be worth less and less. Barter will make more sense as time goes by, or more local currency. Basing exchange on some sort of unit of energy makes more sense than gold or fiat or anything else.
And the bottom line is.....we face the causes of our resource-depleting lifestyle, or we go extinct, and relatively soon. _________________ pedaling for peace and ecojustice -- Gary
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 139 Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
ubercynicmeister wrote:
You're doing better than most. Most will look at the future as either raining stockbrokers or hanging the lawyers (swinging THEM from the vines).
Yup. I figure that none of us will be invulnerable. Food supplies and guns are one thing, but global climate change is going to be the CAT 6 or 7 storm compared to peak oil's CAT 4 or 5. And peak NG, peak water, and a few other significant storms will all hit at more or less the same time.
I've guessed since my college days in the late 70's that I am likely to die young and poor, not because of anything about me particularly, but because we are messing the planet up so badly. Retirement plans seem like fairy tales to me.
I just want to gain skills and to cultivate good relationships, contribute to the young ones, and hope that some of them find some way through the next 30 years.
Retirement has always, always seemed like a fictional carrot to motivate the donkeys, along with the whip.
I would like to find the quote from the former GM CEO who said words to the effect that it was all well and good to promise these great benefits while times were very good, but that when times were bad it would be imposssible to actually deliver on the promise. Does any one have an actual quote, or a source for that? _________________ pedaling for peace and ecojustice -- Gary
Joined: Mar 29, 2005 Posts: 266 Location: Maryland
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
jaws wrote:
peaker_2005 wrote:
And this is why, at 20, I don't expect to retire once I enter the workforce...
You can retire if you save money.
At 5% interest, saving 5000$ a year over a carreer of 40 years will generate an income of 30000$ a year forever. You live comfortably for the rest of your life and your children get 30000$ a year forever when they inherit.
How much do you pay in social security? Do you get that same deal?
5%, only if PO does not happen! Once the economy goes under becuase of PO where are you going to get a 5% return? What about inflation! That 30k will not buy much in the future...
Maybe buy solar panels, then you can sell electricity to the the people with the Mcmansions Might be a better return for your money...who knows.
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Re: GM : "Retirement can no longer be counted on"
I think that if I worked for GM or Delphi I would take the offer and run. Better a bird in the hand. Invest in a solar house and start to figure out other ways of making a living. It's the only smart move. GM went from 33% of the US car market to around 26% from 1995 to 2005. (From USA Today 1/24/06) They are tanking! Who is going to buy a GM now? They have one good car. The Pontiac Vibe, and it's made by Toyota. The writing is on the wall, and it's not good.
I think we'll hear that GM and Delphi are dumping all their pensions on the pension benefit guarantee trust and declaring bankruptcy soon. Now's the time to get out. While they are still relatively solvent. Ford's in trouble too. They might make it if they come out with a hybrid Focus. Focus Bill, focus!!!
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3Next
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Might be a better return for your money...who knows.
