Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: THE Immigration Thread (merged)
Foo! Without illegal immigrants, the lowest paid jobs will pay more. So what if we have to pay more for things, it will be well worth it.
I don't want any more houses built. I want some meadows and forests and streams left untouched.
What you are advocating is "growth for the sake of growth." That's the ideology of cancer.
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: Re: yeah right
emersonbiggins wrote:
If you're for stopping illegal immigration, then you're also for a subsequent decrease in GDP and economic growth. You can't be for one without being for the other. .
Perhaps. Or, maybe we'll use more mechanization.
And if growth needs to decline a bit as we sort out the problems, maybe we'd all have less junk but more smiles. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 1416 Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Quote:
Actually, I'm for stopping illegal immigration and detest "growth for the sake of growth," as you put it. I'm just bringing to light the conflicting ideologies of the neocons, those who wish to have their cake and eat it too. If you're for stopping illegal immigration, then you're also for a subsequent decrease in GDP and economic growth. You can't be for one without being for the other. Why? Simply put, no legal worker will stand bearing those wages, and the higher prices that will arise because of this will stunt economic growth, if not reverse it.
No you're missing the bigger picture. Closing illegal immigration means that people who receive the services provided by the illegal immigrants will lose out, but the people who receive higher wages to do the work currently done by the illegal immigrants will benefit. The two effects cancel out and the economic "growth" is unaffected. You simply have a more egalitarian society where there isn't this subculture of second class citizens who are tolerated because they provide cheap labor.
If you consider that many illegal immigrants aren't really immigrants but are temporary workers who send a large portion of their paycheck back home to support their family then stopping illegals would help America's current account balance. There wouldn't be those billions of dollars flowing out of America to Mexico every year.
I think increasing legal immigration while clamping down on illegal immigration is the way to go. Bush's "Temporary Worker" idea is reallly just legalizing the status quo of having second class citizens depress the labor market to the benefit of employers. _________________ Biofuels: The "What else we got to burn?" answer to peak oil.
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
What complete BS.
The USA may stop for the "rich and lazy", that's fine with me.
Without illegal immigration, kids entering the job market will be able to gain employment at all the places I worked at growing up: fast food joints, local farms, laborer positions with contractors.
I have an 18-year old at home who is finding it very diffucult to find an entry level positon. 25 years ago, I never had a hard time finding an entry level job. Without a job, he won't be saving for college, therefore will be on welfare eventually, or join the armed services.
Is this what the "rich and lazy" want? (rhetorical question, answered with a Yes!)
Close the damned borders, and close them NOW.
We'll deal with the 10 million illegals that are here in some other fashion, but for right now CLOSE THE BORDERS, I don't care if it brings the plans Mrs. Yuppie had for her lawn this year to ruin.
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Thinking about the current immigration fiasco during this morning's routine, I began to ponder whether most people understand what they're asking for when they clamor for closed borders, mass deportation and the like. Frankly, without illegals, the fruit won't get picked, the buildings won't get built and more than a few homes will go unsold. Well, most things will still get built, picked and sold, but not at the prices we're used to. Will you be so fervently defiant towards illegals when your 401Ks start to tank? What about when new home prices start to rise, as builders anxiously try replacing nearly half of their crews and still maintain their margins? What about when building maintenance costs begin to skyrocket as property owners desperately try to find workers that will work for wages that ensure 8-12 people will be sharing an apartment or a home? How many Americans are willing to live in those conditions? Answer: not many. Peak Oil will take care of most of this in the long run (we'll all be poor and desperate), but know what you're asking for when you ask for closed borders. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
OK, you weren't clear in your first post.
My informal social network around here tries to supply as much of our own stuff as possible, even if that stuff is very cheap at the store. We are avid gardeners with the goal of supplying 100% of our own food on our own land. One of us is a soap-maker, and the rest of us buy from him. I am still looking for someone to be a cheesemaker (we have a reliable and inexpensive supply of raw milk).
We are hoping millions of people will take up local, hobbyist production precisely in order to "crash the economy." Not that it's going to need much help, but I'd still like to give it a kick when it's down.
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1159 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
A couple of years ago we had our house re-refoofed by a local contractor. His biggest competition is roofing contractors from a big city 60 miles+ away, who employ illegal immigrants who can't speak English and work for peanuts. The crews are different men almost every day, according to a friend in the city, and the workmanship is questionable. I would rather help keep a local man and his family employed, then send my dollars to Mexico or Somalia through an underpaid illegal.
Food--local small farmers can sell a quality organic product most of the year, that doesn't have to be shipped a thousand miles to the store. As the demand increases for local produce, more small farmers may be able to make a living, and will be encouraged to do what is necessary to extend the season of crops such as lettuces, so they can better compete with crops harvested by what is almost slave labor. If the price of food goes up, maybe farmers will start to get a fair wage.
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: Re: yeah right
foodnotlawns wrote:
Foo! Without illegal immigrants, the lowest paid jobs will pay more. So what if we have to pay more for things, it will be well worth it.
I don't want any more houses built. I want some meadows and forests and streams left untouched.
What you are advocating is "growth for the sake of growth." That's the ideology of cancer.
Actually, I'm for stopping illegal immigration and detest "growth for the sake of growth," as you put it. I'm just bringing to light the conflicting ideologies of the neocons, those who wish to have their cake and eat it too. If you're for stopping illegal immigration, then you're also for a subsequent decrease in GDP and economic growth. You can't be for one without being for the other. Why? Simply put, no legal worker will stand bearing those wages, and the higher prices that will arise because of this will stunt economic growth, if not reverse it. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: Re: yeah right
Jack wrote:
emersonbiggins wrote:
If you're for stopping illegal immigration, then you're also for a subsequent decrease in GDP and economic growth. You can't be for one without being for the other. .
Perhaps. Or, maybe we'll use more mechanization.
And if growth needs to decline a bit as we sort out the problems, maybe we'd all have less junk but more smiles.
Massive capital expenditures on oil-intensive mechanization in the midst of one of the largest liquid fuel crises ever to hit mankind? And in an economic system that dictates perpetual growth? How likely is this?
Alas, I wholeheartedly agree with your last premise, though. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
I pick my own food and I do not need a POS mcmansion that is made by unskilled slave labor. I am building my own earthship. I need no slaves. I am anti slavery. The pro illegal crowd are pro slavery and pro communism.
Any one in this country who is pro illegal immigration or pro any immigration at this stage in resource depletion is a slave owner and a traitor.
If you need the slaves of machine and flesh to build your temples of crap and to shovle slop mass produced food into mouth and on table with zero effort than you can be deported.
I have to laugh at the pro sides on all sides. They are pro slavery and pro government. They are everything they SCREAM against. I have never been fooled by any of them for years now. Mexico is their problem. Not me or my country.
DEPORT ASAP. and that goes for ALL illegals. The 15000 Illegal Irish that marched in the st patricks day parade, illegal russion scum, etc..
ALL illegals. This is no racist PC crap that the enemies sling around and use as a crutch. Their whole gig is a lie. Before it gets bloody, do it.
Joined: Oct 26, 2004 Posts: 305 Location: US Empire
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Here's the race-baiting free and completely obvious solution:
$100,000 fine for hiring an illegal alien per alien per paycheck. Period. First 10% goes to the squealer, next 30% goes to the INS for more agents, the state and the feds split the rest. Maybe the corporate license is revoked and the companies properties are auctioned off to the highest bidder.
Game freakin' OVER.
But wait... those companies we'll be fining contribute to political campaigns. Oh well, nice try. (Forgot that we're a 3rd world bribe to play banana republic.)
G _________________ Gary Malcolm
US Empire
There is no alternative source for our gluttony. Power down or die.
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
nero wrote:
No you're missing the bigger picture. Closing illegal immigration means that people who receive the services provided by the illegal immigrants will lose out, but the people who receive higher wages to do the work currently done by the illegal immigrants will benefit. The two effects cancel out and the economic "growth" is unaffected. You simply have a more egalitarian society where there isn't this subculture of second class citizens who are tolerated because they provide cheap labor.
Not necessarily. The companies that will have to bear legal-market wages (as they should) will simply pass their costs along to consumers or take their stockholders for a ride. Guess which one they'll likely do. Since the stockholders demand no less than perpetual growth, consumers will pay what they have to for things like houses, food and services. If they don't, well along comes a recession and market correction. There will be some hurt, either for stockholders or consumers, count on that.
nero wrote:
If you consider that many illegal immigrants aren't really immigrants but are temporary workers who send a large portion of their paycheck back home to support their family then stopping illegals would help America's current account balance. There wouldn't be those billions of dollars flowing out of America to Mexico every year.
Surely, this is one of the main problems: the exodus of money to Mexico. It probably negates the cost savings by hiring illegals and constitutes a real drain on the American economy. But the corporations don't suffer hardly at all from it, so it continues. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
gary_malcolm wrote:
Here's the race-baiting free and completely obvious solution:
$100,000 fine for hiring an illegal alien per alien per paycheck. Period. First 10% goes to the squealer, next 30% goes to the INS for more agents, the state and the feds split the rest. Maybe the corporate license is revoked and the companies properties are auctioned off to the highest bidder.
Game freakin' OVER.
But wait... those companies we'll be fining contribute to political campaigns. Oh well, nice try. (Forgot that we're a 3rd world bribe to play banana republic.)G
Now , this is an idea that I agree with. It neutralizes the PC bickering and puts the blame squarely where it belongs: those who give illegals a means, however meager, to continue breaking the law. I think that this provision should extend to those companies like Wal-Mart, who contract much of their maintenance labor to outside companies who knowingly hire illegals, all the while maintaining the head-in-sand attitude towards questioning their legality. Revoke charters, incorporation status, whatever. If corporations truly are citizens , then they are illegally aiding and abetting criminals. That's a serious charge by any count.
But, you're right, will the politicos bite the hand that feeds?
(edit for sp) _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Rense predicted that the next 9-11 could be a massive race riots across America. That is very possible. When it all comes down to it, many of these illegals believe that the United States, especially the southwest, belongs to them. I am not sure what percent of them support the racist reconquista groups, but it is probably higher than most people think. The aims of those groups is no secret. They publish it in English. http://www.aztlan.net They have communistic leanings. Not only do they want to take the American Southwest, they also want to overthrow the government of Mexico and eventually merge with it. America would then have a huge communist country right on its southern border, containing a large portion of our natural resources. The Communist Chinese are already stationed on Mexico's border should the need ever rise for them to "help out".
These groups are financially supported by establishment elites in order to break up this country. They want a Pan-American union, and they know that most Americans would be against it if they ever figured out what is is all about. So they will take America down.
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
basil_hayden wrote:
We'll deal with the 10 million illegals that are here in some other fashion, but for right now CLOSE THE BORDERS
The homebuilding and construction lobbies cheerfully disagree with you, and, as a token of their commitment to keeping the status quo, will be sending millions more to the GOP in this year's midterm elections, hopefully to stop the debate on this issue (and others like it).
basil_hayden wrote:
I don't care if it brings the plans Mrs. Yuppie had for her lawn this year to ruin.
Now, that made me LMAO! _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Next
Page 1 of 8
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
, then they are illegally aiding and abetting criminals. That's a serious charge by any count.
(edit for sp)
