Joined: Feb 16, 2005 Posts: 251 Location: Siberia of Canada
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
"Without illegal immigrants America stops" sounds to me like without corruption America stops. Because hiring illegals on a large scale is in fact corruption: violation of laws by businesses and government officials. Then I am still wondering how the US is different in essence from all the corrupt banana republics of the Latin America and Africa where corruption is a norm and even necessity.
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Fox: If you stop the flow of illegal aliens into the US the flow of oil from Mexico will stop as well.
Bush: Ok, no problem.
Anyone else think this might be part of the problem? _________________ -Dac
Winners never quit and quiters never win, but those that never win and never quit are idiots.
Joined: Dec 04, 2005 Posts: 186 Location: UK (Kent)
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
jmacdaddio wrote:
I didn't say it was right, I'm just saying how things are.
I would gladly pay more for groceries picked by American legal labor. However, trying to do that is like boycotting products made in China: impossible because the game is rigged. The flag-waving, Fox News watching, Explorer-driving masses who get riled up about illegal labor are the same ones who never stop to think why they can go to a warehouse store and get a side of beef for $2 a pound.
Endless growth is impossible of course, and I have concerns that children of illegals will grow up to become burger-munching, SUV-driving Americans.
The sad truth is that Americans are too fat, too lazy, and too stupid to do the kind of work that Mexicans do for us. If I own a constuction firm, am I going to hire for an "American" wage a 19 yr old kid with a 48 inch waist who can barely add 2 and 2, or am I going to hire a crew of Mexicans who will move twice as fast for twice as long at half the price?
Unfortunately I would have to agree with you on every point, people are addicted to their unsustainable lifestyle, although I do believe that ending it will be better in the longterm. Take my example, in the UK the average house price is around 180,000 ukp, now if we had not had the mass immigration our population would be a good 6 million less - we'd have more space per person even with the tendency to cram into the south east.
I'd guess the housing prices would be closer to 60k average, much easier to afford, and thats without the social benefits where young couples can actually afford a decent house to bring a family up, enjoy some greenery etc. My parents house was a typical family house, its now worth over 300k - way out of reach of anyone but the rich or retired. But none of thats going to happen, as everyone is addicted to their quick fix existance.
As a sign of how things are going in the UK, last year there was a strike at Heathrow, the Indian workers who did the catering was sacked en mass and replaced with even cheaper Eastern europeans, ironic really seeing that they originally replaced indigineous workers because they were cheaper...
As for the new generation - they have my sympathies.
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Thanks Eddie, I've got more than a few on this board who are willing to run me out of town for speaking the truth.
It'll be interesting to see how the EU handles labor movement. Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, etc. are willing to move to other European nations for opportunity and unilke here in the US they can do so legally. I recently read an article describing how Polish universities and trade schools offer crash courses in English, French, German, etc. so when their nurses, doctors, engineers leave they will be able to communicate in their host countries. We'll see how their new countries react.
A Turkish acquaintance said this about living in a strange country: it is interesting, but sometimes you want nothing more than to wake up, go outside, and buy a loaf of bread without having to speak a foreign language to do so.
Europe might handle the legal side of immigration well but not the social aspects (ahem, France). We make a mockery of our own laws but we generally go out of our way to help newcomers and the generation born on US soil is American through and through. Even the Saudis have a guest worker program to deal with all the Egyptians and Pakistanis living there ... do we need to place a call to Riyadh for help? You would think GWB's friends there would be able to offer some ideas.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
jmacdaddio wrote:
We'll see how their new countries react.
The whole EU thing is seen as a way of aiding big business rather than indivdual state citizens. Hence the various "non" votes against the constitution.
For a "laissez faire" system it seems to involve a hell of a lot of legislation and bureaucracy. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
jmacdaddio (and ilk),
First, you appear to be clueless about the fact that there are literally MILLIONS of Mexican nationals (ie immigrants) allowed to work in the US LEGALLY (non-citizen, legal residents). In fact there are around 12 million foreign permanent residents in the US (ie people who have immigrated here from another country) and of those, 8 million foreigners were eligible to be naturalized as US citizens!!!
READ: http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/LPRest2004.pdf
Those numbers alone (OVER 11 MILLION) show that US law is very accommodating to people who want to emigrate. "LPRs, more commonly known as“green card” recipients, are authorized to live and work permanently in the United States." Of course there are many tens of millions more immigrants who have been naturalized as US citizens already because the US has had the most successful LEGAL immigrant laws/policies in the world and everybody wants to come here.
ILLEGALS 2004 ONLY:
DHS "apprehended an estimated 1,241,089 foreign nationals. Ninety-two percent were natives of Mexico.
• There were 58,727 investigations initiated and 46,656 closed for immigration related activities including crime, compliance enforcement, work site enforcement, identity and benefit fraud, alien smuggling, and counter terrorism.
• ICE detained approximately 235,247 foreign nationals for a minimum of 24 hours.
• There were 202,842 foreign nationals formally removed from the United States. The leading countries of origin of formal removals were Mexico (73 percent), Guatemala (4.1 percent) and Honduras (4.0 percent). More than 1,035,000 other foreign nationals accepted an offer of voluntary departure."
- DHS removed 88,897 criminal aliens from the United States. The majority of criminal aliens (68,771 or 77 percent) were from Mexico."
http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/AnnualReportEnforcement2004.pdf
Second, as far as an actual guest worker program, WE HAVE THAT ALREADY. What Bush is proposing is a NEW one. In fact there are currently 13 different types of Temporary Worker visas depending on the length of stay and other factors. There are also many long-term student visas for foreigners.
Right now a Mexican can fill out some forms and be a guest worker in the USA. I've been to the border a lot of times (SoCal) and see huge lines of Mexican nationals either coming or going from the US border LEGALLY (while a few illegals run down the highway). Probably thousands of LEGAL Mexican immigrants come from Tijuana, Mexico and go across the border to jobs in the US EVERY DAY. There are provisions in NAFTA that allow this! + trucking and all kinds of other commerce is going on.
But why should somebody fill out the paperwork, when they can come across the border ILLEGALLY with no repercussions and not pay any income taxes or obey US laws + get free services everybody else has to pay for??? Why would not a criminal fleeing from Mexico escape into the US with no ID and create havoc when no documentation is required to cross the border????
Please explain your views on these points.
Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
An explanation? Gladly.
I find it hard to believe that Mexicans can simply sign some papers and then come here legally. Why would so many come here through the desert illegally if that was the case? And of those thousands of Mexicans waiting patiently in line, how many of them simply disappear once they cross?
Sure, there are temporary worker visas for resort workers and other seasonal jobs. It's not a bad way for teenagers or young adults from other countries to come to the US, earn some money, improve their English, and then do a bit of exploring before heading home. As an example UK and German soccer magazines advertise schemes to send footballers to the USA for the summer to run camps and clinics for American kids. The jobs are hardly backbreaking, and they're usually in the context of cultural exchange and learning. There are also NAFTA-mandated visas which help individuals in certain professions move across borders more easily, which usually results in skilled Canadians moving to the USA. Again, white-collar immigrants don't create fear and hostility in the Amercian population.
Contrast that with Mexico, where US companies routinely advertise positions in Mexican newspapers to entice peasants and slum dwellers to get to America and work in a slaughterhouse or sweatshop. The biggest misconception about illegal Mexican immigrants is that they are the criminals. The real criminals are greedy US corporations looking to squeeze every last drop of profit from their work forces. As an example slaughterhouses are terrible places to work, and Mexicans here illegally are not about to complain to OSHA if they're hurt. Why are slaughterhouses using cheap, illegal immigrant labor? Because of the Wal-Martification of almost any product you can think of -- if the slaughterhouse can't deliver the beef to Sam's Club at the price dictated by Bentonville, someone else gets the deal. Oh, and the workers pay taxes because their employers submit false SSNs which take months to process, and when the answer comes back they submit another false SSN. And the US gov't needs all the revenue it can get these days, so INS is not about to raid the slaughterhouses and sweatshops.
The situation has gotten out of hand because of our housing boom. When Toll Brothers hires a roofing contractor to put shingles on McMansions, the roofer will gladly Mexican day laborers to get the job done on time and under budget, and once the job is done he can let his workers go. Our visa system needs a major overhaul before it can accomodate this arrangement. Calling to toss the Mexicans out without understanding how the big picture has changed reeks of jingoism and right-wing propaganda.
In the past Mexican migrant workers would come for seasonal jobs in construction and agriculture, then go back to Mexico. This was tolerated because they would leave once the fruit was picked. Tightening our borders in recent years has made it more difficult to come and go for seasonal jobs, so if they make it across our borders they just stay.
Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
jmacdaddio wrote:
The biggest misconception about illegal Mexican immigrants is that they are the criminals. The real criminals are greedy US corporations looking to squeeze every last drop of profit from their work forces.
Well, the illegal immigrants are not classified as criminals as the offence is a civil one as far as I know but they still have broken civil law. That's just the way it is unless we just give up and say "OK, fine do whatever the F**k you want".
Your right, the people that hire the illegals are more so to blame and are the root of the problem. I have no problem seeing penalties as high as jail time for violating the law. Isn't conspiracy to commit a crime worse that the crime itself sometimes? I don't know.
If you want to fix the problem you punish the employers. Low end wages will rise to fill the gap and if there is not enough labor we talk about letting more people in. Then Joe work has a higher wage and the Mexicans are no longer working for slave wages.
Thats just the way I see it. And I don't want to run you out of town. If I wanted to talk with people that agreed with me I would be posting on an anti-immigration website. _________________ -Dac
Winners never quit and quiters never win, but those that never win and never quit are idiots.
Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Quote:
I find it hard to believe that Mexicans can simply sign some papers and then come here legally. Why would so many come here through the desert illegally if that was the case?
Why would they immigrate illegally, rather than legally? A combination of reasons. It's simply easier and more beneficial to the immigrant because they don't have to pay taxes, register or do anything that even US citizens are required to do. There is a Mexican immigrate-to-USA system in place. It's called "coyotes". Rather than fill out forms, pay a small fee and wait for 6 months (then be required to register + pay taxes + eventually leave), it is easier to pay the coyotes and cut in front of everybody else in line to immigrate. They can pay off the coyotes either by working for a company that the coyotes arrange or by illegal activites like smuggling drugs (very common) or perhaps they already have enough money (less common). If they come through illegally they get all the benefits of US citizens without having to pay taxes. They may go 10 years without paying income taxes so that saves quite a bit of cash instead of registering with the IRS. They probably have friends/family they can hide out with as well. It's a whole criminal underground system. And it is CRIMINAL by definition since they came here illegally they are lawbreakers. It may be good for them but everybody else who has to pay for themn (and there are millions of them) gets screwed.
Quote:
Sure, there are temporary worker visas for resort workers and other seasonal jobs. [...]There are also NAFTA-mandated visas which help individuals in certain professions move across borders more easily, which usually results in skilled Canadians moving to the USA. Again, white-collar immigrants don't create fear and hostility in the Amercian population.
There are 3 million Mexican nationals (and an additional 9 million other foreigners) who are legal residents allowed to work in the US right now. That is plenty fair. The US is the most pro-immigration country in the world. And regarding NAFTA, it cuts across many professions not just white collar.
Quote:
Why are slaughterhouses using cheap, illegal immigrant labor?
They should not be using illegal labor. It's the fault of the (1) illegal immigrants for coming here illegally in the first place, (2) companies who hire illegals, (3) border patrol, (4) Mexico, (5) congressmaen not doing naything about it. All these groups need to be held accountable.
You've worked in McMansions, Wal Mart, right-wingers etc. Typical propaganda that has nothing to do with the issue that these people came here illegally of thier own free will. Let's see... WalMart forces Mexicans to illegally cross the border to the US? Is that your brilliant idea? Toll Brothers too? Maybe they kidnap them and bring them unwillingly over?
Quote:
Tightening our borders in recent years has made it more difficult to come and go for seasonal jobs, so if they make it across our borders they just stay.
That simply is not true. The border has not tightened for Mexicans (and the majority of illegals here). If anything it is getting LESS restrictive for them. It's not about seasonal jobs. They want to permanently leave Mexico and permanently live in the USA. So all this crap about seasonal jobs, which is false anyway, is just a smokescreen.
Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Quote:
ou've worked in McMansions, Wal Mart, right-wingers etc. Typical propaganda that has nothing to do with the issue that these people came here illegally of thier own free will. Let's see... WalMart forces Mexicans to illegally cross the border to the US? Is that your brilliant idea? Toll Brothers too? Maybe they kidnap them and bring them unwillingly over?
Wake up and smell the pallet of coffee on Aisle 6. This country over the last decade and a half or so is in the process of what I'll loosely term The Great Squeeze. It's laissez-faire capitalism run amok. Everyone, everywhere is being squeezed to the breaking point while the top 2% of earners enjoy the greatest transfer of wealth in history to their bracket. It's no secret that Wal-Mart squeezes their suppliers. The supplier that gets the deal to deliver beef (just an example) has to find a way to meet the price and still make a little profit. The easiest way for any business to improve profit margin is to reduce their labor costs, and in the case of the slaughterhouse, bringing in truckloads of illegals to process cattle for $6 an hour makes sense even after accounting for fines paid to INS and to OSHA. This is a classic example of the concept of externalites, where our corporations, by virtue of their sole responsibility to enrich shareholders, transfer as many of their costs of doing business to entities outside of the corporation (known as "externalizing"). In plain English and in the case of illegal immigration, they know they can pay illegals like crap and get away with it because INS cannot possibly keep up with the situation, not to mention that other costs related to hiring illegals (medical care, schools, etc) are passed on to the taxpayer. This has become standard practice for lower-wage, dangerous and monotonous jobs. The population at large doesn't care because they are in turn being squeezed by their employers and appreciate the fact that food costs have remained relatively stable (although anyone who's bought groceries over the last few years should notice a rise). In the case of the construction industry, Toll Brothers doesn't care who the roofer uses as long as the job is done on time and on budget. The happy couple getting their McMansion doesn't care as long as the home is built on time and the "value" keeps going up 20% each year. Capitalism in this era cares little for the petty laws of nation-states. Until our government asserts its role as referee of the marketplace (fat chance under Bush, Dems won't do much better) the situation will continue.
We've always had illegal immigration, just not on an industrial scale and not in an era of 24 hour news, although Lou Dobbs hardly counts as news. Also it's not confined to the usual places like LA and NYC: it's all over the country.
So, you have a choice: continue to cry foul as every year you're working harder for a little less money while your corporate masters get richer; demand that your government take action and at least find a way to get illegals documented, tracked, and taxed; or vote for third party candidates to break the Washington deadlock. Pay attention because this is important: The corporations love it when ordinary Americans see illegal immigration as a law-and-order issue: they avoid bad press, and people's attentions are focused on the Mexican on the front lawn instead of the CEO looting the family bank account.
Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
It looks like our politicians have decided to model the US economy on Rwanda. Where overpopulation and resource scarcity leads to genocidal civil warfare and dieoff.
Way to go DC!
The southwest is in a terminal drought. Lake powell is drying up. Nevada has used up their allotment of the Colorado river and plan to mine the state's aquifers that farmers depend on.
Atzlan! La Raza! Reconquista! Agua por favor? It's looking like the Mexicans are going to get the southwest back just in time for it to revert back to what it always has been A F'IN DESERT that supports very low population densities. Ask the Piutes, Shoshones, Bannocks, Navajos, Hopi et cetera. The real natives.
Meanwhile, the Wall Street Journal Editorial board and the Che Guevera T-shirt crowd stand hand in hand cheering on the overshoot! Rah Rah!
Haha, what a dumb species. The Tainters and Diamonds a hundred years from now will sure have plenty of study matter.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
Im with seldom every time! Yep the che guevarea crowd are an urban/suburban breed and/or just horrifyingly low IQ's. Or maybe just reading to much theories. The sw will be atzlan and then when they overshoot themsleves out of house and home and the tax base they depend on to keep their babies bloated and stupid dries up they come a migrating. The che guefero crowd is missing a cog in the brain. LOLO the racist statement from this gego thing is actually amusing. If it only would look in the mirror and record itself. Its one of these gynocracy screamers. Zenophobe! racist! Hollow words. and when we will really need to use them they will have lost all impact. The human race is truly a parasitic cannibal.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
the whole pro illegal pro immigration crowd is being exposed as self serving and selfish. They want what we built. they do not want to do the work they just want the freebies. and IT blamed us on the boards for being socialist! Its so twisted and demented. Their is no other way but collapse and die off. The thinking is just too twisted and specious. No way out. ever. illogical solutions and thinking.
agrarian thinking is smart.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Without illegal immigrants, America STOPS
I will never be fooled. I am anti-slavery, anti_racism, anti-corruption. There is a core of tough ass Mofo Americans that will NEVER be fooled. Lock and load mother f**kers. bring it on!
Quote:
Hispanic Leaders Brag About Anti-White Hate, Racism
By Frosty Wooldridge 4-13-6
"Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die. Through love of having children, we are going to take over." -- Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets
"They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over. We are here to stay." - Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Councilman
"We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it!" -- Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas "Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California." -- Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party
"We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, 'I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."-Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor
"California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave." -- Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton
"We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California." -- Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General
"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos." -- Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University
"The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot." - Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico. Are these just the words of a few extremists? Consider that we could fill up many pages with such quotes. Also, consider that these are mainstream Mexican leaders.
THE U.S. VS MEXICO
On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, "This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."
Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts? It's called affirmative action or racial privilege. The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent. Recently, a vote was taken in the U.S. Congress to end this practice. It was defeated. Every single Democratic senator except Ernest Hollings voted to maintain special privileges for Hispanic, Asian and African immigrants. They were joined by thirteen Republicans. Bill Clinton and Al Gore have repeatedly stated that they believe that massive immigration from countries like Mexico is good. They have also backed special privileges for these immigrants.
Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more.
DID YOU KNOW?
Did you know that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County, California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members; 98% of which are Mexican and Asian. How's your county doing?
According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia, 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.
Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. "Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references."
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