I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Pops wrote:
Now to my current Hobby-Horse:
One of the main strategies of managed grazing (basically very high stocking rates for very short and infrequent periods on small paddocks) is to force the animals to eat everything in front of them. The appearance of a well-grazed plot is like it has been cut with a finish mower to a uniform height leaving the right amount for new growth depending on the type of grasses, legumes, etc.
The benefit is since they don’t have time to be selective and chew down only the good stuff and leave the bad, the diversity of the pasture can be preserved. As well, since they aren’t on any plot for a long period, trails, shade, water, etc don’t get as trampled as if they were used continuously.
Once I semi-retire, God & peak oil willing, I would like to try my hand at breeding/raising draught horses. Good post peak oil transport and draught power. Forget about the Chinchillas in the garage. Labradors & Newfoundlanders as well as Border Collies! ; - ) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
MrBill wrote:
Also, the extra grazing will keep the bush where I am from thinned out and that in turn lessens the fire hazard.
Of course, the cost of fencing is an issue...
I didn’t see your post Mr. Bill, but I understand where you are going now.
The area where we live was mostly open prairie until settlers began putting out wildfires and planting grass instead of working the native grasses. On the one hand, there is now lots of woodland – on the other, its hard to keep the scrub down without the burns.
I have an alfalfa field, which in a couple years will be ready to replant where I’m thinking of establishing warm season natives. The idea is to rotate the alfalfa to a new field every 3 years or so and in doing that I can get rid of the infected fescue and put in a better mix of plants.
Anyway, instead of lots of fencing to hold in many different animals, could burning once every couple years on the dedicated pastures and leaving the outlying woodlots to grow be a part of your plan? _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:33 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Last time we burned dead grass on the farm my dad took out the barn, the house, my old car, the trailor and a whole workshop full of tools! A lot of my sweat equity went up in flames that afternoon! ; - )
Well, where our farm is is pretty hilly and it is light, brown wooded soil, on the edge of the Boreal Forest in N. Alberta. It is not prime agricultural land, but you take what you have. What we have are extended family, south and west of us with thousands of acres of crop land for harvest and greenfeed as well as leased land for grazing and cattle.
If I think of the most effective use of my limited resources, it is clearly not to accumulate more of the same. Rather hope to increase the size of the home quarter and pick-up another three or so of contiguous quarters near home. This land has two fresh water lakes, deep wells, a stream that runs through corner of the farm to the N. Saskatchewan River, and several natural depressions for dugouts (fed in the spring from the stream). If properly fenced it would be ideal for pasturing cattle, if only steers from my brother in law who has the leased land nearby, and is set-up for a cow & calf operation year round.
I think with so little land that hay and managed pasture is the only way to go. There is no use trying to grow much wheat, oats & barley, except on about 30% where it is quite flat, but then the cost of machinery is too expensive. Better to let the neighbors farm it for as long as they are willing.
However, due to the hilly nature, I think mixed is the way to go. Steers on pasture with a strict rotation. Then instead of letting them on the steeper hills and maybe causing erosion, we could instead turn to deer & elk or sheep & goats. But as I said, coyotes are a problem, so we would need to fence properly. I am not going to be out there herding them everyday! We already have about 12+ mule deer using the place more or less year round plus other elk & moose that come through occasionally. Based on their herd size, they are hardly making any impact on the natural vegetation at all. I am guessing the carrying capacity is quite a bit higher, especially with rotation and some supplemental feeding if need be?
The trees are most of the scrub variety. Poplar and birch with a few evergreens. The bush between the trees gets pretty tight & overgrown. Would want to push through some trails with the front end loader and bush mower to open up more pasture and allow access, plus they make great cross country ski trails. However, more cattle or deer would help to thin the excess bush as well. Admittedly, that would mean less saskatoon berries, but we'll just have to move some bushes down to the garden to get our fix of fresh berries, plus jams & jellies.
In the meantime, the wood from the dead & fallen trees is good enough to burn as supplemental heat. The poplars grow like weeds and are of no commercial value. The catepillars usually kill them every few years, so they never reach a respectible size. We could hand plant more sapplings of other species, but to be honest, they would take a long time to grow and when they are young the deer & elk love to snack on them. They will take down a row of seedlings like a lawnmower in a few evenings if they are not covered in pagewire. A long term project might be to have 50-100 firs growing on the northside of the ski hill as potential lumber in 40-50 years, but that is really outside my time frame. At least the evergreens are more resistant to the catepillars and having a dozen different species of trees is always a good back-up plan.
Figure worse comes to worse, post peak oil we can run farm machinery on bio-diesel and/or ethanol made from potatoes and cooked using the poplar. Handtools we have enough. A few older pieces of farm machinery we have as well. They are simple enough to keep running. I am no mechanic, but in the family we do, in addition to welders and machinists. We have a full workshop, so can pretty much make anything we want or more importantly need. I think the biggest asset is the land and the extended family. Hard to run a mixed farm with just a few hands for so much work. Me, I am pretty useless, but I am a carpenter and at least I can drive fence posts and herd cattle! ; - ) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
MrBill wrote:
Figure worse comes to worse, post peak oil we can run farm machinery on bio-diesel and/or ethanol made from potatoes and cooked using the poplar.
Bio-diesel, in my understanding, is essentially vegetable oil. You won't get any from potatoes. But they can be a fairly good ethanol source, because they are mostly starch.
You need to do some minor changes to the engine to run ethanol on it, I've heard. Best to get informed sooner rather than later.
Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:51 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Doly wrote:
MrBill wrote:
Figure worse comes to worse, post peak oil we can run farm machinery on bio-diesel and/or ethanol made from potatoes and cooked using the poplar.
Bio-diesel, in my understanding, is essentially vegetable oil. You won't get any from potatoes. But they can be a fairly good ethanol source, because they are mostly starch.
You need to do some minor changes to the engine to run ethanol on it, I've heard. Best to get informed sooner rather than later.
We grow canola (rapeseed) which can be processed into bio-diesel, but you can also make it from animal fat I guess? The potatoes would be good for either moonshine or ethanol. Easy peasy to make, so long as no one knows you're making it out back in the shed. My 1928 Model A runs on either ethanol or gasoline. It is just an adjustment to the carburetor.
Would recommend having a few older vehicles around pre-catalytic converter and newer, lighter electronic and plastic components. As Castro has proved, you can run a reliable car made of metal that is easy to repair for more than 50-years without any difficulty. They may not get good mileage, but for around the farm and to and from town once a week, give me a reliable rust bucket! ; - ) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Wow, didn’t realize this thread had sunk so far. I thought I would just post a little bit about how the calf backgrounding is coming along (while I wait for an email) since Mule thought we were all planning to grow escargot and escarole. Guess most must be - judging from the age of Mr. Bill’s post.
For those who don’t know, we are raising dairy steers from birth to an age they can be sold to put on grass or to a feedlot. At first we raised them to around 700# but with the price of feed we do better raising a few more to around 400# before we sell.
To purchase, get them weaned and alive eating mostly grass at around 4 months, costs us about $210-$230, depending on the season. This year we got from $190-$105 cwt for 350#-450# calves so we are only making around $180/head now. Actually we trade for most of them now so our out of pocket costs are really around $60-$80 and net is around $300.
Anyway, it has been quite interesting learning about those bums. I was raised around beef cattle as a kids but bottle-feeding dairy animals is a whole different thing. We have pens in a barn for the little suckers, several paddocks with water for when they get older and a homemade working and loading chute.
So far we have only 5% loses; one by lightning, one poisoned (I think wilted cherry leaves) and one that dared me to get him off the bottle before he croaked – he won. We have had bouts of coccidiosis, pinkeye, scours and some things I can’t figure.
Saturday we found the nicest calf we have ever had with a broken hind leg and a sprained foreleg and we just can’t understand how it happened. It is a pretty nasty break, down at the joint where the bone is the thinnest - I couldn’t even feel the bones touching as I worked it. I splinted it using some towels, lath boards and duct tape and stuck him back in the calf barn. We rigged a sling and as soon as I borrow a block and tackle I will rig up a hoist to get him off the ground from time to time so his intestines don’t bind up and get some circulation to his legs.
So it goes… _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:23 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
A good friend of mine sold their farm down in southern Alberta because irrigation was becoming too expensive (due to urban sprawl of course) and that area is too arid for dry land farming.
They moved up north where they are now on some prime number one land with deep, dark black soil and more reliable rain. They bought during the BSE crisis in Canada, so got a pretty good deal. Although their new farm must be smaller in acreage than it used to be, but better land.
They are still raising cattle. A lot more pasture than before to bring the calves/steers up to a certain weight before they go into the feedlot for finishing. Western Canadians are using less corn and soyabeans in finishing than central Canada or the USA. More grain and canola meal. Less calories/protein, so they do not finish as quickly, but we like to think the meat tastes better (actually like a slow growing oak tree with strong fibers, it does taste different as it has another consistancy).
So in any case, with the higher price for grain in general, they are also finding out it makes sense to use more pasture even if it takes longer to bring them to market weight. But on the other hand they are getting good prices for their beef cattle too. Prices are off their highs in 2006, but now seem to be trending higher again? _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Corn was low this time last year and when it surged last fall the bottom really fell out of the cattle price, especially the heavier weights about ready to go to the lot.
Mr. Bill I could never make a living as you do – even something as seemingly straightforward as raising beef has more variables than I can get my little head around.
Recent meat packing company consolidation, buyouts and raids by the INS.
BSE import and export bans
Weather
Here is another wrinkle; right now the milk prices are pretty high due to feed prices, last years droughts, this years floods etc.
When milk is up dairymen keep more milkers in the string and work those girls into the ground instead of selling them to slaughter. The result of course is a somewhat higher demand at the producer level for rougher cuts.
I understand springer heifers are $500 or more higher than a couple years ago.
In fact, a big grocery chain on the west coast, Ralphs I think, recently went vertical and started feeding lighter weight Dairy steers exclusively and butchering at around 1,100# as I remember. Most people think dairy steers go to make hamburger and hot dogs. Actually a higher percentage will grade choice than traditional beef breeds – I know, that surprised me too.
I guess like any other commodity, looking at all that stuff either helps you decide whether to hold or sell or simply gives you a headache! _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
I like hay. Lower production costs. Less machinery needed. Good for the land. Plant it and then cut it. Bail it up and wait for a good price. All you need is a good pole shed to keep the weather off it.
It would cost us $10.000 to properly fence our place for cattle. plus we would need to dig a new dugout near the creek. At circa $500 per cow that is a lot of steers just to break even. Never mind the work.
My step-sister's husband has a lot of cattle. They are happy to rent pasture or buy hay from us. But leave that side of the business to them. They know what they are doing. I certainly don't!
UPDATE: July 13th
Quote:
Agriculture Comment
July WASDE release
USDA's latest crop estimates are bullish for soybeans and bearish for corn.
As expected, corn inventories now appear to be rising ...
The massive rotation into corn cultivation that the June acreage report underlined has resulted in a reversal of the inventory drawdown in 2007/8, thus pushing our fair value estimate down to 310 cents/bushel. We continue to see long-term opportunities in corn, as this magnitude of increase to production is unlikely to be repeatable.
... but at the expense of further declines in soybean inventories
The immediate result of higher corn production is lower soybean production, as most of the increase in corn acreage in the US comes out of soybean acreage. The WASDE continues to point to a steep inventory drop in 2007/8, raising our fair value estimate to 1073 cents/bushel.
Wheat continues to be pressured higher by low inventories
The WASDE made few changes to the wheat outlook. Continued supply concerns are keeping wheat inventories at historically low levels, and thus our fair value estimate has risen to 587 cents/bushel.
Source: Goldman Sachs Commodities Research
July 13, 2007 _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Thought I’d update this for anyone interested.
We carried about 40 head through the winter – a little rough in a few spots it was but have done OK as the price of corn moderated somewhat and feeder calf prices came back. The tough winter caused what alfalfa we made to go for a good price as well.
Had some problems as usual with the hot wire, lots of shorts due to the wet spring and I lost a charger to lightning I guess. After that little expense I built a lightning arrestor - duh. I’ll post up how to build one if anyone is interested.
Interestingly, right now the going price per pound for a 800# calf is only slightly less than a 300# calf; usually the bigger the less per pound.
In my last post I said something about $190 cwt but that was a typo - $90 is what I meant.
I was just doing some paperwork and it looks like we will finally break even by the end of the year. We have made a profit the last 2 years but will recoup all our investment (aside from the land of course) with our next trip to the auction barn. That includes some depreciable assets that we elected to expense.
Pretty cool to get there from (virtually) a standing start.
The bull calf crop has been kinda scarce from the 2 dairies we buy from – lots of heifers, dang it. But the fall crop will be coming soon and the law of averages says the boys will be coming.
After a great spring it has been pretty dang hot lately and the grass was awful crispy, I sat out a bale of hay for the 20 or so head on pasture. BUT, we got about 7-8 inches last night and it was spread out enough I think some sunk in.
BTW that nice calf with the broke leg did well for about a week or 10 days, up and around some even, but then he went downhill pretty fast. He wasn’t happy and it was time he went to greener pastures, From the start I didn't think he would make it but my neighbor said I could always shoot him later - wish I had did it sooner.
Dairy cows are quite different from beef cattle raised in the open. They are docile by nature and being handled so much from day one makes them even tamer. I know each one; their disposition, if they look happy or poor, who is the follower and who the leader, who is skittish or bossy, and yet, I do pretty good about not getting attached. After all, they are only around for a year or so and then off they go.
But that bum would lay his head on my lap anytime I went to give him a shot or work on the splint.
Sending him on his way was tough. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
I thought I would share this pic of the latest bull added to the herd.
Sorry if it is a little big...
The little bugger was two months premature (a cows gestational period is close to a humans) and has little hair and really small teeth, which are some of the last things to develop.
The calf to my left is about 3 weeks old and the one 8ft or so in the background to my right is about 3 days.
Most calves we get are between 60 and 80lbs and some feel like 100 when I lift them into the pickup; if this guy was 30 I would be surprised!
He is suckin’ and kickin’ like a trooper so far! Susan's maternal instincts are on high alert so the little crap better make it!! _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3879 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Hey Pops, you sure his daddy wasn't a dwarf, or maybe a goat? (g,r&d,v,v,f) _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: [Food] Production - Cattle/Grass Farming
Tanada wrote:
Hey Pops, you sure his daddy wasn't a dwarf, or maybe a goat? (g,r&d,v,v,f)
He sure is tiny huh?
Naw his Daddy is realllyl big – I feed him daily.
His Mom only had a few weeks off the milk line due to some confusion in record keeping and didn’t get her vacation I guess. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
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