Diesel article from NY Times

gonin02 · Tar Sands Joined: Oct 24, 2004 Posts: 33

This is an article that was in the NY Times a few years back... I showed it to people when it first came out, but everyone just shrugged their shoulders...looks like they still are. BTW, anyone from Europe own an Audi A2? It looks alot like the Toyota Prius.. doesn't it (window panels) ?

>May 26, 2001
> It Gets 78 Miles a Gallon, but U.S. Snubs Diesel
>
>
> By EDMUND L. ANDREWS with KEITH BRADSHER
>
>
>
> RANKFURT, May 26 - To judge by the mileage it can get, the Audi A2
> sounds like just the kind of exotic hybrid-fuel car that President
> Bush would want to promote with his new energy plan.
>
> The sporty new four-door compact has a top speed of 100 miles an
> hour. It can travel 78 miles on a single gallon of fuel and emits
> fewer "greenhouse" gases than almost any other vehicle on the
> market. Yet the A2 has at its core a technology that generates
> scorn in the United States: the diesel engine.
>
> The A2 is part of a powerful movement in Western Europe, where
> gasoline prices are often three times what they are in the United
> States. Diesel engines burn as much as 30 percent less fuel than
> gasoline engines of comparable size, and they emit far less carbon
> dioxide and other greenhouse gases, which have been implicated in
> global warming. After being disparaged for years because they were
> noisy, smelly, smoke-belching and sluggish, a new generation of
> much cleaner, more nimble diesel-powered cars is suddenly the
> height of fashion in Europe.
>
> Diesel engines powered 32.3 percent, or nearly one-third, of all
> new cars sold in Europe last year, compared with 21.7 percent in
> 1997. Analysts predict the share will rise to at least 40 percent
> by 2005.
>
> The contrast with the United States could not be more stark. Fewer
> than 1 percent of new American cars have diesel engines. And the
> gap is likely to widen, because American antipollution regulations
> severely restrict the sale of diesel engines, and American
> environmental groups are adamantly opposed to relaxing them.
> European environmentalists, while pressing for tougher standards,
> are far more accepting of the new diesel technology.
>
> A report commissioned by Congress and being prepared by a panel of
> the National Academy of Sciences bluntly suggests that the United
> States may be missing a big chance.
>
> According to a person familiar with the draft report, which is due
> in July and is being prepared with considerable secrecy, the panel
> will suggest that "the surest, fastest way to improve the fuel
> efficiency of the American fleet would be to allow diesels to be a
> greater part of the landscape." President Bush has said that he is
> waiting for the report before deciding what, if any, changes to
> make in American fuel-efficiency standards for automobiles.
>
> But the panel is not expected to call for a change in the
> environmental rules. The person close to the panel said a shift
> toward diesel would require "gigantic" investment and "would
> probably be a foreign- dominated technology."
>
> Harry Pearce, a vice chairman of General Motors until Friday, when
> he becomes chairman of its Hughes Electronics unit, said the
> company had no intention of investing in more diesel engines for
> the American market unless the air pollution rules change. "We're
> denying ourselves the largest incremental step we could take" to
> reduce American emissions of global-warming gases, he said.
>
> In Germany, home of Mercedes and Porsche and unlimited speeds on
> the autobahn, the average new car has improved its fuel efficiency
> steadily since 1990 and now gets about 32 miles a gallon. The
> average diesel car gets about 40 miles a gallon. By contrast, the
> average efficiency of new vehicles in the United States has
> deteriorated steadily over the period as ever more sport utility
> vehicles have been sold, and was just 24.5 miles a gallon last
> year.
>
> By all accounts, diesel technology has made a series of major
> advances in the last 10 years. The days are long gone when diesel
> engines spewed black smoke. The newest engines are almost as quiet
> and smooth as their gasoline rivals, and the telltale metallic
> knocking sounds have almost disappeared in some cars.
>
> Performance has also improved. The newest generation of
> pump-injected and "common rail" diesels offer better torque and
> acceleration than comparable-size gasoline- powered cars.
>
> "The performance is fantastic," said Paul SchrÃ¶der, a German
> physical therapist who is trading his old Audi gasoline car for a
> diesel- powered A2. "My main goal was to save on fuel expenses. But
> I love to drive, and I wanted a car that would be fun. This car has
> great acceleration, and it is very agile. It really is a lot of
> fun."
>
> Mr. SchrÃ¶der calculates that he will cut his monthly fuel bill by
> about half, partly because diesel fuel is cheaper and partly
> because of the new car's extraordinary mileage.
>
> Engines emit carbon dioxide and other gases implicated in global
> warming in direct proportion to the amount of diesel or gasoline
> they burn, so vehicles with more efficient diesel engines emit less
> of these gases. And today's diesel engines produce far fewer tiny
> soot particles than just seven years ago.
>
> As a result, European environmentalists and government officials
> have been much more comfortable with diesels than their American
> counterparts. "A liter of diesel takes one farther and produces
> fewer greenhouse gases," said Albrecht Schmidt, a top expert on
> energy issues for Germany's Green Party. "The big problem with
> diesel is the small particulates, but we think that problem can be
> solved with new particulate filters."
>
> American environmentalists remain highly critical. "Diesel is the
> quick and dirty way to increase fuel economy," said Daniel Becker,
> the director of energy and global warming policy at the Sierra
> Club. "As long as we have other technologies that are clean, I
> don't see the point in producing carcinogenic soot."
>
> Differences in attitudes among environmentalists are reflected in
> the stringency of air pollution rules, with European regulators
> giving fairly lenient treatment to diesels while American
> regulators have virtually banned them.
>
> Stringent air pollution rules for diesel engines were issued with
> virtually no warning by the California Air Resources Board in late
> 1998, and will take effect in the 2004 model year. The decision was
> made by the board itself, a group of political appointees, many of
> whom were about to leave office because their patron, Gov. Pete
> Wilson, a Republican, was retiring. The board's technical staff had
> recommended more lenient standards, but at its final meeting, with
> no staff analysis, the board adopted stricter rules with little
> discussion.
>
> The rules were chosen without consideration for the ramifications
> for global warming; California regulators say that is an
> international issue outside their purview.
>
> The Environmental Protection Agency traditionally copies
> California's air pollution rules and did so for the diesel rule in
> late 1999. The agency's decision, which also takes effect in the
> 2004 model year, came despite heavy federal subsidies by the Energy
> Department and the Transportation Department for the production of
> prototype vehicles with hybrid engines that could run on either
> diesel fuel or electricity.
>
> General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChyrsler each completed diesel-
> electric hybrid cars in early 2000 that could get 80 miles to the
> gallon, but have largely abandoned these projects because of the
> new air pollution rules. They are now struggling to catch up with
> Toyota and Honda in the production of hybrid vehicles that use
> electric power to improve the overall fuel efficiency of vehicles
> with gasoline engines.
>
> At the same time, compared with Europe, the United States has much
> dirtier diesel fuel - used by heavy trucks and in a slightly
> different form, as home heating oil - with far higher levels of
> sulphur. The American oil industry, much more influential than
> Europe's oil industry because the United States produces a lot of
> oil, has lobbied successfully to prevent rules requiring cleaner
> fuel to take effect until June 2006.
>
> In France, more than half of all new cars sold are powered by
> diesel engines. "Diesels are trendy," said Thierry Dombreval,
> senior vice president for marketing at Renault. "The customers for
> diesels are younger and more affluent, and those are the people who
> are trendsetters."
>
> BMW and Mercedes are selling diesels in nearly half of their most
> expensive cars. The waiting period for the diesel version of the
> Mercedes sport utility vehicle is 12 months, which is three months
> more than for the gasoline version.
>
> Diesel currently sells at an average of $1.45 a gallon in the
> United States, compared with $1.70 for gasoline, but diesel prices
> sometimes rise above gasoline prices in winter when refineries
> produce heating oil instead of diesel. In most European countries,
> diesel is at least 20 percent cheaper than gasoline because of tax
> treatment.
>
> A leading reason for Europe's boom in diesel-powered cars is their
> tax treatment. Most European countries impose much higher "ecology"
> taxes on gasoline than diesel fuel, mainly because governments want
> to avoid damaging commercial truckers.
>
> In the United States, the image of diesel cars has never recovered
> from the damage done in the early 1980's when automakers,
> responding to sharp rises in oil prices, raced to introduce such
> models on a large scale without working out the technical glitches
> first. "We put some vehicles out there in the marketplace that,
> independent of the emissions and fuel economy, just didn't work
> very well," Mr. Pearce of G.M. said.
>
> In Europe, both Ford and G.M., which have been producing cars
> there for decades, lost significant market share because they
> failed to recognize the coming popularity of diesels years ago.
> Today, both companies are racing to catch up.
>
> "I believe it is just a matter of time before the United States
> comes around to diesel," said David W. Thursfield, chief executive
> of Ford of Europe. "The technology has moved ahead so much. Fifty
> miles to the gallon is normal, and you don't even know you are
> driving a diesel."
>
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/27/business/27DIES.html?ex=992071341&ei=1&en=
0908976c6854e587

frankthetank · Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:51 pm Post subject:

It would almost seem that the powers that be don't want diesel to catch on in the US...???

gg3 · Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:13 pm Post subject:

Governor Wilson was known as "Sneaky Pete" for good reason; he was basically a selfish opportunist without much in the way of principles. He wasn't much of a conservative either; more of a neo-con.

On the other hand, with Governor Schwarzenegger, I think we really have a decent chance to make some progress on this issue. The guy is more of an oldschool conservative, and I think more likely to let new technologies work themselves out in the market. The fact that he has roots in Austria probably counts for something in terms of his contact with European technologies and trends; that is, he should be aware of what Audi, Mercedes, and VW are doing in this area.

Speaking of VW, go do a web search for "VW Lupo." One hundred miles per gallon on diesel, clean-running, and inexpensive enough to be affordable by anyone who wants one. It's a small car, but perfectly adequate for the vast majority of most individual, family, and small-business needs. And, unlike some of the alternative vehicles, it has all the added comforts one would like in a vehicle, i.e. heating, fan-forced ventilation (probably also air conditioning), and a decent radio (to which one can add a CD player).

So, I'm thinking it might be interesting to organize a letter-writing campaign to the Governor's office, urging him to look further into the question of high-efficiency diesels. If anyone has "inside contacts" up there, it would be worthwhile getting an appointment to make a brief presentation, including photos of the Audi, VW, and other examples.

gonin02 · Tar Sands Joined: Oct 24, 2004 Posts: 33

yeah, the Lupo has been for sale in Europe for a few years now... great mileage and creature comforts to boot... probably cheaper than the Smar t car too..

bentstrider · Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:17 am Post subject:

Bio-diesel markets going to love it.
I remember this late 80's Buick we had.
5.7 liter GM diesel. Sucked total ass.
Thats when my stepdad bought an '89 F 250 with the Detroit 7.3 .
22mpg, but burns home-furnished bio-diesel with no problems.
Hauls ass up the freeway too.

Bytesmiths

Diesel hybrid is perhaps the ultimate in internal combustion technology. Not only is a diesel engine more efficient than a spark-ignition engine, the hybrid system conquers one of diesel's shortcomings: a narrow power band.

Gasoline engines love to rev -- at least 4,000 RPM or more -- and they produce more force (torque) and power the faster they turn. Unfortunately, they wear out faster at high RPM, and are less efficient.

Diesels, in contrast, exhibit a "humped" power curve, producing much more torque than gas engines at a lower RPM. Past a certain point (peak torque), they produce only marginally more power as RPM increases. Because of the heavier components needed to withstand the higher compression required for diesels, the RPM is generally quite limited, to 2500-3000 or so.

These factors -- limited RPM and a strongly peaked torque curve -- have kept diesels unpopular. Because they require sturdier transmissions with more gears to handle the higher torque and to keep the engine operating near peak torque, the transmissions are more expensive, and require more attention from the driver.

But wait -- a hybrid doesn't even have a transmission! The diesel can be operated at exactly the proper RPM for peak energy efficiency, which is generally the same (or nearly so) as the peak torque point. Pulse-width-modulated electric motors take the place of the transmission.

So a diesel hybrid can operate at its peak efficiency at high power output, whereas gas hybrids operate at peak efficiency at a fraction of peak power output. Plus, a diesel does this at a much lower RPM than a gas engine -- perhaps 1600 vs 3000 RPM. Finally, a decent diesel will have many times the useful lifetime of the gas engine, thus improving the "entrained energy efficiency," the ratio of energy used to produce the engine to the energy produced over the engine's lifetime.

To top this all off, diesels are multi-fuel champs compared to spark engines. Biodiesel has a better energy production ratio than ethanol, and diesels are readily adapted to burn pure vegetable oil, which can be produced without any fossil-fuel input whatsoever.

All together, it's pretty silly that engineers are looking at anything other than diesel engines for use in hybrids. I really don't understand it, except perhaps inertia -- the companies producing hybrids aren't known for making diesels.
_________________
:::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::

clv101

Bytesmiths

xcel · Tar Sands Joined: Nov 18, 2004 Posts: 22

Hi All:

___There isnâ€™t really a whole lot of facts being passed on in this thread in regards to Diesels or Hybrids but there are other places to learn about them â€¦ Insightcentral.net, Priusonline.com, Greenhybrid.com, and TDIClub.com are a few to begin with.
___The main item is Hybridâ€™s and late model Diesels arenâ€™t cheap enough in comparison to regular ICE based automobiles in the States even with $2.05 Diesel/$1.83 Regular unleaded here in the Chicagoland area as of the other day. That and the US already uses a very large % of its refined Diesel from a Bbl of oil for truck transport vs. Europeâ€™s own personal transport. Europe actually ships their excess refined gasoline to the United States although the supplies are much tighter this year then in the recent past from my understanding â€¦

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Bytesmiths · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject:

Optimist · Heavy Crude Joined: Sep 28, 2004 Posts: 220

I don't mean to suggest that diesel hybrids are not going to happen, but some real concerns remain and need to be addressed, as pointed out in this article: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6151220/ For instance

small_steps

Bytesmiths

Frank · Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:09 am Post subject:

I've emailed VW a couple of times asking if/when they're going to market a diesel hybrid in the US and they claim to have no plans to do so. Personally I like the concept of hybrids because (a) you can use a smaller hydrocarbon motor for cruising because the electric assist helps during acceleration and (b) it shuts off (some designs) in city driving. I suspect that manufacturers will move to even smaller gas engines as people get more used to the idea of slower acceleration, although I think a diesel hybrid is a no-brainer. Typical cars only need 15-20 hp to cruise at highway speeds so I'd also expect to see designs that lock-out cylinders during cruising conditions. BMW will be marketing such an engine this year.

small_steps