Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas

enixon · Coal Joined: May 19, 2006 Posts: 3

Ok fokes, I hate to be the one to burst your fantasy bubble but this entire story is a scam, Nothing more, nothing less.

Roughly once a decade a over the hill self proclaimed inventor comes along and claims to have invented a car that runs on water. What is actually happening is that these guys get the idea of splinting hydrogen and oxygen apart from water to fuel a car then look in to how it might be done only to find out that that process called "electrolysis" was invented in the 19th century.

These guys get it in their head that they've invented some thing so great and wonderful that when they are faced with the truth I believe they just ignore it. I think they really do think they have made some thing new, when in reality they have reproduced the same dam invention. Many of you may have noticed how this Kline guy said " my special electrolysis process." when I heard that, my bullshit meter went through the roof. There's nothing NEW about this guy or his invention. In fact it has all been faked before. Back in the early 90's a guy by the name of Stanley Meyers did the same thing. He got the military and lost of news stations talking to him but at the end of the day it was all a scam. He was simply using standard electrolysis, and as a result he had to pay back all of the 25,000 he got from investors.

heres a link to the Meyer's guy. There's a news video on there just like this new guy. Never trust some thing just because it's on TV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer

Many people keep talking about Hydrogen fuel like it's going to replace oil. Every one who talks like this has absolutely no idea what there talking about as I'm sure the person that said this quote " What makes this story so interesting is the off chance that we could tell the oil producer's to kiss off. I'd love to see that within my lifetime." would agree. They don't know a atom from a electron.

Hydrogen fuel cells run on hydrogen and oxygen. But where dose hydrogen come from? You run massive amounts of electricity through water. But where do you get the Electricity? We could get it all from nuclear power plants but people are stupid and think that they are dangerous without knowing the science behind them. There are many many nuclear subs in our oceans and our sailer's aren't glowing green.

However the sad truth is the following. The Bush administration started a committee in 2005 to deiced where the electricity would come from to produce Hydrogen for automobiles. Every member of that committee except one(a solar power guy) was from the oil industry and as such they deiced the best way to produce electricity was to build large power plants which will run on oil. So we are basically trading millions of small oil using factories for dozens of large ones. This doesn't salve our problem at all and it pains me to think that I voted for the Bush.

Be for you guys get all exited, how about you go take a semester of chemistry at your local community college. Learning shouldn't stop just because you are out of high school or have a college degree.

I don't often get drawn in to these dumb scam debates but I'm so annoyed by my countrymens lack of basic knowledge of chemistry. The Corrupt politicians get away with this crap because most Americans are historically, politically, and scientifically illiterate.

slagskot · Coal Joined: May 19, 2006 Posts: 1

enixon
You sound quite knowledgeable about the chemistry of this thing, but please go take a community college course of your own on English grammar and spelling. It drives me crazy when an intelligent person diminishes their argument with poor spelling and grammar.

enixon · Coal Joined: May 19, 2006 Posts: 3

Point taken I should have proof read that long of a post.

BTW, Has any one found the patent number on this guy's invention?

QuelDommage · Coal Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 1

APPLICATIONS
20060075683 Apparatus and method for the conversion of water into a new gaseous and combustible form and the combustible gas formed thereby
20060032555 Anti-rust treatment using KLEIN.TM. gas flame
20050269210 Electrolytic solution for promoting electrolysis of water
20050258049 Hydrogen generator for uses in a vehicle fuel system
20040149591 Apparatus and method for the conversion of water into a new gaseous and combustible form and the combustible gas formed thereby
20040074781 Hydrogen generator for uses in a vehicle fuel system

PATENT
6,866,756 Hydrogen generator for uses in a vehicle fuel system

I haven't had time to look through any of them. You can look them up for yourself at http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

DoubtingLiz · Coal Joined: May 24, 2006 Posts: 1

First of all, I'm not a scientist/engineer so I'm not trying to infringe on anyone's brainpower here.

Denny Klien's brother happens to be a good friend of my boyfriends father (got that?) I've been hearing about this "hydrogen technology" for, oh, two years now. Last year when my boyfriend was thinking of investing money into this company I ended up doing a lot of research on Klein, HHO, the water-torch, and this car that supposedly runs on hydrogen. At every family function there is usually a big to-do about how the stock is going to go public in a "couple of months" (the current date is Aug 2006) and everyone is going to be millionaires.

The thing is, I agree wholeheartedly with enixon. This whole deal is 90% woo.

The first flag for me was that people that are very close to this operation--and have invested thoustands of dollars in it--know next to nothing about the actual technology. The one reason my boyfriends father gives for why the "test vehicle" runs on some hydrogen/ mostly gasoline is because if they ran it completely on hydrogen it would be too hot and essentially "melt" the engine of the car... apparently the have to come up with a new metal now also? Does that even make any sense at all?

An essential point no one has ever explained is where does the power come from to electrolyze the water/hydrogen mixture in the car? From what I understand, this takes a lot of energy, and by the time it's all said and done, you're only getting about a third as much mechanical energy vs. your electrical energy input. That is not effecient at all.

(A couple of people that know much more about physics than I do discuss it here.)

What Klein is really doing is essentially a "shock and awe" routine with that water welder of his. When you watch a 30 second bit on CNN (you can see it here. ) It looks impressive, that's what I thought at first too. But there are reasons why in the last 20 years these water-welders haven't become the norm... they make brittle, unmachineable welds, are not easy to transport, and take more that twice as long to cut through materials than conventional methods. People who weld for a living would understand that. Average Joe's that watch CNN or Fox news and see water turned to flame (and don't understand it) figure if Klein can do that, then sure, why couldn't he run a car off it?

From what I understand, after the half-assed coverage of recent news reports (I do have to give FOX Detroit new anchors some credit, they did ask if our fuel crisis really would be solved by a man in a flannel shirt...) there have been a lot of people wanting to invest in Kleins Company--even people from Arnold Schwartzenegger's camp-- which just goes to show the world is full of stupid people, and some of them run our country.

robertp · Coal Joined: May 24, 2006 Posts: 1

enixon - you did not "burst my bubble", but thank you for being so polite about your skepticism in the science.

I have taken more than a semester of community college chemistry, and I have read the patent application too. I'm willing to hear more from Klein before passing him off as "just another guy who has re-invented electrolysis."

Maybe, I'm a bit of an idealist, but I'm willing to hear more before I start ranting and raving that this thing is a scam.

I found it hilarious that enixon posted his whole rant and rave, and THEN admitted that he hadn't even read Klein's patent application! So, I have to assume that he is making his mind up based off of internet posts and Fox News.

Great. Whos the "illiterate" American now? Speak for yourself, Buddy.

ThunderChunky · Tar Sands Joined: Dec 09, 2005 Posts: 78

When you see the same scam rehashed over and over you dont need to waste your time reading the patents.

PD3 · Coal Joined: May 29, 2006 Posts: 1

There are any number of reasons to believe you can't burn water, starting with say Aristotle as well as personal experience with water. As far as I can tell from looking at the website, Klien is positing some sort of transitional state molecule which is stable until in the presence of a catalyst and which has an energy denisty more then three times greater than H2 itself, and that this "Aquygen™"can be generated with a net energy gain. This would entail a major re-write of every chemistry text. It's hardly worth going into the possible benefits from such a development so I'll just say it would possibly be a boon to cruise ships. I will take then the commonsense position that this is at best, cold fusion II. I do not however believe (as sometimes seems to be held in discussions of peak oil), that solutions are impossible and violence inevitable.

This is a list off teh top of my head of developments only from the US over the past what 150 years or so.
Light bulb,
recorded music
motion pictures
telephone (all Edison BTW)
Airplane (Bicycle repairmen)
Personal Computer (mouse, graphical interface, laser printer, ethernet all Palo Alto lab then Steve Wozniak)
Internet and Internet message boards
Google

One might come up with a similar list for medicine, anesthesia and so on and so forth. One might also argue reasonably that people are not any happier or better off despite these changes. The point is that it is (almost) never the technical issues which are the most difficult ones in solving a particular problem such as decreasing petroleum supply. It is whether people can rise above their fears and hatreds enough to allow the solution to occur peacefully. I leave you with three quotes of John Paul II which I hope and trust will not engender fear or hatred.

"Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."

"Have no fear of moving into the unknown. Simply step out fearlessly knowing that I am with you, therefore no harm can befall you; all is very, very well. Do this in complete faith and confidence."

"From now on it is only through a conscious choice and through a deliberate policy that humanity can survive."

EnergyUnlimited · Fusion Joined: May 15, 2006 Posts: 3123

Technically you CAN burn water eg in fluorine gas.
It will burn (with flames) according to equation:
2H2O + 2F2 = O2 + 4HF

You can even burn sand (with flames):
SiO2 + 2F2 = Si F4 + O2

However it is not a commercial proposal in ANY WAY (production of necessary fluorine is prohibitively expensive and energy hungry process and ecological problems with large amounts of HF are few orders of magnitude greater than those with freons for example.

Forgeting curiosities described above any water burning ideas to get net energy gain are silly "perpetual motion machine" proposals.

microbe · Coal Joined: May 30, 2006 Posts: 1

Grid51 · Coal Joined: Jun 24, 2006 Posts: 1

ChumpusRex2 · Tar Sands Joined: Mar 11, 2006 Posts: 77

EnergyUnlimited · Fusion Joined: May 15, 2006 Posts: 3123

J-Rod · Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:20 am Post subject:

samuraisam · Coal Joined: Jul 21, 2006 Posts: 1

I also know Dennis Klein, personally. I've seen this product, personally. I believe it to be a scam, unfortunately. I would say do a little investigating into his past business history and this should give you a reasonable idea with whom you are dealing. Unfortunately, the many investors taken by all of this, did not and probably with suffer the consequences. In the meantime, Dennis Klein is living very well off his investors. Buyer beware!