I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
In all fairness I think it’s a bit simplistic to blame the Islington elite for all the problems, even though that can be patronising, naive little darlings at times. A lot of political correctness and Health and Safety fascism comes from fear of litigation. We can thank the no-win, no fee lawyers for that one. Whilst I don’t agree with enclaves of immigrants, most immigration benefits big business (and consumers) in order to keep wages down. And realistically with international travel, you are always going to get people wanting to move about the globe to live and work
The UK has moved on from the traditional scenes epitomised in 1950s films, never to turn the clock back, and probably not for the better. Outsiders would probably be shocked to learn the country has moved on from a gentlemanly, respect driven polite nation, to one of yobs out for the five minute thrill and intellectuals and politicians that wish to nanny at every opportunity. There’s very little reason for some people to think for themselves anymore and community spirit has all but disappeared in most areas, people live their lives through the TV, computer games, hello magazine and the Daily mail. It really would be nice for everyone to co-operate in a crisis, but I can see the panic buying and opportunism to make a buck illegally or illegally rife in a badly handled situation. With a spin led indecisive government keen it maximise it’s gains at every given opportunity it doesn’t take much imagination to see why some people are preparing for the worst.
Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Wildwell wrote:
In all fairness I think it’s a bit simplistic to blame the Islington elite for all the problems, even though that can be patronising, naive little darlings at times. A lot of political correctness and Health and Safety fascism comes from fear of litigation. We can thank the no-win, no fee lawyers for that one.
Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Mostly judges based on case law and politicians, and these days the unelected EU brings in a huge amount of law, which supersedes all UK law.
A lot of law is introduced after litigation, brought to the courts by money-making law firms - it's an ever evolving process. How cases of unfair dismissal are treated can bring an awful lot of red tape and additional costs on companies, for example. We all know that Human rights laws from the EU have created a lot of 'political correctness'.
Joined: Mar 10, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Airstrip 1
Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
SoothSayer wrote:
Serious question for city/town dwellers:
If things got bad would YOU roam the countryside looking for food?
Would you steal it from allotments, gardens & fields?
Would you expect to be dealt with VERY harshly if caught?
Just wondering ... I need to make defense plans
I won't be making any raids on your parsnips or brussels sprouts. Too risky and not enough reward.
Ever tried to run carrying a sack of broccoli? I thought not.
No, most marauders will be hunting long pig in the remains of the cities. Those old age pensioners may be tough, but with night vision gear and bows and arrows, at least they're easy prey.
Me? I'll go quietly to the work camp. I heard there's free soup. 'Camp Soothsayer' our nearest one's called. Guy must have owned the land it's on or somethin'.
Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Actually, it's something I already do...at the nearest mega-grocery store. I'm disabled and live in Maryland where they recently dropped pharmacy coverage in my Medicaid plan, which has crowded me into a Medicare pharmacy plan which, to make a long story short, squeezes the hell out of my wallet. As I see it now, it's an all you can eat buffett at the grocery store.
Also, in terms of theft from large corporations, listen to this: It's a good thing. If shoplifting raises the prices, people consume less, as now they can not afford as much. Powering down would mean lowering your consumtion, right? The honor of theft now, no crap and Amen.
Joined: Mar 10, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Airstrip 1
Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
jsb1969 wrote:
Actually, it's something I already do...at the nearest mega-grocery store. I'm disabled and live in Maryland where they recently dropped pharmacy coverage in my Medicaid plan, which has crowded me into a Medicare pharmacy plan which, to make a long story short, squeezes the hell out of my wallet. As I see it now, it's an all you can eat buffett at the grocery store.
Also, in terms of theft from large corporations, listen to this: It's a good thing. If shoplifting raises the prices, people consume less, as now they can not afford as much. Powering down would mean lowering your consumtion, right? The honor of theft now, no crap and Amen.
The old 'trolley full of cans of beans, prime steak and cheese in your pockets' scam, huh?
Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Chicken_Little wrote:
jsb1969 wrote:
Actually, it's something I already do...at the nearest mega-grocery store. I'm disabled and live in Maryland where they recently dropped pharmacy coverage in my Medicaid plan, which has crowded me into a Medicare pharmacy plan which, to make a long story short, squeezes the hell out of my wallet. As I see it now, it's an all you can eat buffett at the grocery store.
Also, in terms of theft from large corporations, listen to this: It's a good thing. If shoplifting raises the prices, people consume less, as now they can not afford as much. Powering down would mean lowering your consumtion, right? The honor of theft now, no crap and Amen.
The old 'trolley full of cans of beans, prime steak and cheese in your pockets' scam, huh?
Nahhhhh, in America it is only 'theft' if you leave the store with with it. The only evidence on me would be a full stomach. Cheers!
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 64 Location: Little Blighty on the Down
Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Very few allotments have anything worth stealing - for the simple reason that as soon as any fruit/veg become ripe, they are picked and taken home for storage.
Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
FishAreBest wrote:
Very few allotments have anything worth stealing - for the simple reason that as soon as any fruit/veg become ripe, they are picked and taken home for storage.
Yes, but someone can get there first. I had a friend who had an allotment and got fed up of travellers picking his stuff first.
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1198 Location: England
Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Doly wrote:
FishAreBest wrote:
Very few allotments have anything worth stealing - for the simple reason that as soon as any fruit/veg become ripe, they are picked and taken home for storage.
Yes, but someone can get there first. I had a friend who had an allotment and got fed up of travellers picking his stuff first.
That would be SO annoying ... it's one thing someone nicking a pack of supermaket bacon from your freezer in the shed ... but it's quite another someone nicking veggies you have spent hours planting and tending yourself.
I would go APESHIT if someone nicked my allotment stuff.
In a Mad Max situation I would suggest that a loop of rope be kept ready at a nearby tree to deal with such criminals.
(Mind you, our local travellers seem to be into bank robbery etc so I would be a bit cautious about approaching them! The police only go onto their camp if accompanied by firearms teams and dogs) _________________ Technology will save us!
Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
So we’ve pretty much concluded allotments in the real world, unless it’s a nationwide ‘Dig for victory’ type campaign, are a waste of time.
I think it all depends on how ‘apeshit’ people go. On both sides of the pond there are laws in place to confiscate property in a crisis, and I’m absolutely sure they are planning for work camps to house troublesome people in. Personally I think the government take control of everything and direct food/fuels supply, re-house and re-labour people. The whole idea it’s going to be like ‘the good life’ is a fantasy frankly, it’ll be everyone’s worst nightmare, with huge travel restriction, work restriction and so on. Governments try to maintain government at any cost, they know all this stuff is coming up and are making plans for it.
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Some ideas for defence against marauding hordes, (in case of total collapse, i.e. everybody is on his own, no authorities to defend you nor to hassle you), if you are isolated and if you lack "heavy duty weapons":
Simply bluff:
Make big very official looking signs which warn of a highly contagious disease and a quarantine, or which warn of radioactivity due to an accident in a nearby nuclear facility. To illustrate the threat one could scatter some bones around...
(maybe also create a horrid stench at strategic places (roads) with a chemical that in German is called "butter acid" - it stinks horribly and stays for ages)
Hang some skeletons (real or fake) on gallows on the road to your property, or display some skulls, to show how looters are dealt with...
Make a row of two fences around your property, in between you make big "mine field" signs. Of course it's much too dangerous to really have mines, but a few manually ignited caches of explosives would be easily made and would have quite some effect if they go boom if the horde approaches.
The biggest threat IMHO would be a sneak attack by a little group of marauders, who kidnap somebody in the vicinity of the property etc.
Without electricity it would be difficult to keep some sort of sophisticated intrusion detection system up and running, the best bet would probably be some dogs (or gooses, think of the Romans). _________________ "Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave."
Karl Kraus
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
SoothSayer wrote:
Serious question for city/town dwellers:
If things got bad would YOU roam the countryside looking for food?
Would you steal it from allotments, gardens & fields?
Would you expect to be dealt with VERY harshly if caught?
Just wondering ... I need to make defense plans
I think historically starving people will steal if the risk/reward is worth it. For the first two I'd say yes if the circumstances were right.
On the 3rd absoloutely if caught stealing food when there is a major shortage hell that will be "the crime of crimes". Didn't people get deported half way around the world for stealing bread as little as 200 years ago. UK --> Australia.
On point 4, I think be prepared for change. If the government (will of the people) re zones your land to farming for the "national interest" what can you do? Be prepared to work hard, adapt, survive.
The best land to own IMO is land far from large population centers. In a world of diminishing energy all other factors being equal (rainfall, soil fertility, heating fuel e.g. wood) the remote location is superior, especially if there is little to no development between you and other urban areas AND that your property only produces enough to feed yourself and a small group of people. Essentially makes it a poor choice to raid due to poor energy return.
If you own land and are surrounded by large populations if the SHTF do you think you'll get to keep your land and its production? I doubt it. This land will be re zoned farming for "the national interest" so that more people can survive.
There are other factors such as between your "remote location" and urban areas are there other farms or sources of food that could be used to hop to your location, how many people could push on to your property on foot based on these intermediate food sources, would there still be mechanised transport available, is law and order maintained. Too many variables IMO.
I think just sit tight go with the flow, don't get too highly in debt work hard, be prepared for change in private property arrangements that may or may not benefit you directly. _________________ "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
Wildwell:
Quote:
... I can’t see any scenario where people would be allowed to ‘starve’ in cities ...
Your imagination is weak.
RonMN:
Quote:
I would live off cattail roots, acorns, dandelions, & even beg before i stole anyting...but sure, if you're starving to death (or worse yet, one of your family is starving to death) then i could see theft as an option.
Ah, the foraging route. I see you live in MN. What would you do in the Winter? You know it takes more energy to digest some greens than your body get back from them. Really you'd have to hunt small game to sustain yourself or you'd be very thin and weak. Doubly true if you were physically active.
Back to the OP. I think if things got BAD in the UK, and there was a hard crash, it would be dire. The country is so crowded and not many people know how to raise and grow their own food. The question is how long it would be before long-pig is on the menu.
After the transistion things would be better... but the transistion is what we're talking about and it would be rough.
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?
SoothSayer wrote:
Serious question for city/town dwellers:
If things got bad would YOU roam the countryside looking for food?
Assuming I had no food and got trapped in Britain on holiday etc...is the other choice starving to death? If it is then I'd have to say yes.
SoothSayer wrote:
Would you steal it from allotments, gardens & fields?
If I had no other choice then the same answer, yes. It wouldn't be fun starving to death.
SoothSayer wrote:
Would you expect to be dealt with VERY harshly if caught?
Is this a trick question?
Depends on what you are talking about here, if it was over a turnip I would hope not to get lined up against the wall for it. That being said, perhaps that was your last turnip and because I ate it your kid starves. Tough question to answer, to many variables. It also depends on how badly society has broken down and whether "the law" applies anymore, or whether there was a police force left to turn me over to. For sake of arguement let's just just say that all hell is breaking loose and it's your last turnip...then I'd answer yes...go ahead and shoot me to add some meat to your turnip soup.
SoothSayer wrote:
Just wondering ... I need to make defense plans
Defense plans are always a good idea, whether it's for turnip raiders or random muggers.
Hey, wait a minute, I just remembered that you guys aren't allowed to have guns, mace and things of that nature. I guess you'd have to stick me with a knitting needle.
My honest answer is that I would hope you would see my half starved, ragged state and notice the Canada patch on my backpack. Then you'd say, "Hey Canuck you look hungry, care for a bowl of turnip soup?"
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