How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Mar 04, 2005 Posts: 2552 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: Britain goes nuclear
Britain goes nuclear
Quote:
Britain will enter a new nuclear age this week as ministers approve the latest generation of atomic power plants and MPs clear the way for a replacement for Trident.
The Independent on Sunday can reveal that tomorrow the Cabinet's Energy and Environment Committee will take the crucial decision to build new nuclear power stations for the first time in 20 years.
independent _________________ Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
IT will probably be good in the short run (assuming they have the plant up and running before too long) but I can see problems in the long run. Any details on the actual power plant being built?
Joined: Aug 18, 2005 Posts: 524 Location: Belgium, Europe
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
it should be very interesting to see what happens to the price of uranium the coming months and years
past three four years the only way was up _________________ www.peakoil.be
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2640 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
It's not like the price of uranium matters to nuclear power as a whole.
Quote:
Nuclear power’s variable cost is 3,5 öre/kWh, of which almost 3 öre is for the fuel and about 1 öre for future waste disposal. The fuel costs break down into three approximately equal parts: uranium, enrichment and fuel rod fabrication. Each costs about 1 öre/kWh. This means that a doubling in the cost of natural uranium, from 1 öre/kWh to 2 öre/kWh, would increase the total cost of nuclear power from 20 öre/kWh to 21 öre/kWh, i.e. a 5 per cent increase.
On the other hand, if the price of natural gas was doubled, the cost of gas-fired power would increase by about 60 per cent. Doubling the price of coal would increase the cost of power production in a large coal-fired power station by about 30 per cent. Another interesting illustration is that the production cost of coal power would increase by at least 60 per cent if carbon dioxide had to be removed at the power station.
Joined: Jun 20, 2004 Posts: 250 Location: California
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
Starvid wrote:
It's not like the price of uranium matters to nuclear power as a whole.
Couldn't have said it better myself. At some point the price will be high enough to make reprocessing irresistable. At some point beyond that breeders will be required.
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
I'm not very knowing of nuclear fission, but I thought I read on here that reprocessing can yield 50 times the amount of net energy per unit of cost. So really, when prices have increased 6 fold in the past few years, this could easily be neglected with a 50 fold decrease in cost with reprocessing.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2640 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
mekrob wrote:
I'm not very knowing of nuclear fission, but I thought I read on here that reprocessing can yield 50 times the amount of net energy per unit of cost. So really, when prices have increased 6 fold in the past few years, this could easily be neglected with a 50 fold decrease in cost with reprocessing.
It's breeders that do that, not reprocessing. Reprocessing yields something like 20-25 % extra fuel in the form of mixed oxide fuel (MOX(uranium+plutonium)). _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
More good news this week. Excellent.
Uranium: what they said about reprocessing and breeder reactors. France has track record there, and presumably engineering talent that's willing to travel if needed.
And after uranium comes thorium, which is good for another century or two.
Joined: Apr 11, 2006 Posts: 62 Location: about to go splat
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
I am all for nuclear power, at least it will keep the lights on. However, in a bankrupt post-peak Britain 5-10 years from now, where will the government find the funding (and energy) for all of this?
In addition, the only source of energy that comes out of a nuclear reactor is electricity. And I don't see any electric planes, trains, boats, cars, and trucks in operation. How will going nuclear save our oil intensive JIT food/fuel/consumer products distribution infrastructure that our society is woefully dependant on from collapse?
Joined: Dec 20, 2005 Posts: 174 Location: Costa Geriatrica
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
newhunter-gatherer wrote:
And I don't see any electric planes, trains, boats, cars, and trucks in operation.
I hardly ever see anything but electric trains at the end of my road these days, fortunately. Those old diesels were dirty and smelly.
Electric boats cars and trucks are coming, hybrids at first. Electric planes? doubt that will ever happen. flight is always going to need liquid fuel of some sort or other.,
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3334 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
newhunter-gatherer wrote:
I am all for nuclear power, at least it will keep the lights on. However, in a bankrupt post-peak Britain 5-10 years from now, where will the government find the funding (and energy) for all of this?
In addition, the only source of energy that comes out of a nuclear reactor is electricity. And I don't see any electric planes, trains, boats, cars, and trucks in operation. How will going nuclear save our oil intensive JIT food/fuel/consumer products distribution infrastructure that our society is woefully dependant on from collapse?
Boats can sail if they want, but SHIPS (1000 tons displacement and up) will just install a reactor like the N.S. Savannah and a whole slew of submarine and surface ships in the Navy. The twin reactors in a Nimitz carrier would easily power a cargo ship or oil tanker. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Joined: Apr 11, 2006 Posts: 62 Location: about to go splat
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
"I hardly ever see anything but electric trains at the end of my road these days, fortunately. Those old diesels were dirty and smelly.
Electric boats cars and trucks are coming, hybrids at first. Electric planes? doubt that will ever happen. flight is always going to need liquid fuel of some sort or other.,"
I see nothing but diesel powered trains humming all day long along the main line that runs at the bottom of our garden.
I seriously doubt that we will ever see electric trucks, or cars. It requires around one metric tonne of lead acid batteries to provide the same amount of energy that a small internal combustion engine produces. An 18 wheel truck would need a battery the size of a small house to provide the energy needed to haul a load over any significant distance.
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Britain goes nuclear
Electric cars are quite possible, it's just scalability and re-fueling.
Electric trains have been about for 100 years and are pretty universal in Europe for freight and passengers. Some countries are 100% or near 100% electric - Eg Switzerland.
Electric buses exist as do trolley buses and trams.
Trucks are more tricky because of weight, but you could have a 'trolley truck' and rail feeder system or use biodiesel in a difficult situation
Planes rely on liquid fuels are are the most difficult challenge.
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