Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
In early May, temperatures on the ice cap some days were almost 20 degrees above normal, hovering just below freezing.
From cores of ancient Greenland ice extracted by the National Science Foundation, researchers have identified at least 20 sudden climate changes in the last 110,000 years, in which average temperatures fluctuated as much as 15 degrees in a single decade.
Normal warming, or human-induced this time? If we're doing it, will it be worse than a normal fluctuation? If the melt keeps accelerating, could the inrush of fresh water screw up the Gulf Stream and cause it to stop, bringing horrendously cold winters to Europe?
All we can be sure of is that this can't be good. _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:56 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
Yes, I read this and felt a bit uneasy and helpless. Amazing how none of this seems to sink in anywhere.
I sometime discuss issues of over fishing, pollution, genetically modified food etc. and see that a lot of this just does not seem real or of immediate relevance to most peop _________________ Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
In early May, temperatures on the ice cap some days were almost 20 degrees above normal, hovering just below freezing.
From cores of ancient Greenland ice extracted by the National Science Foundation, researchers have identified at least 20 sudden climate changes in the last 110,000 years, in which average temperatures fluctuated as much as 15 degrees in a single decade.
That's a huge jump in temperature. Seriously, if Greenland melts then a lot of humanity is going to go underwater (especially in the Bangladeshi flood plains). _________________ Hello, my name is Rax. I live in the Amazon jungle with a bunch of women. We are super eco feminists and our favourite passtimes are dangling men by their ankles and discussing peak oil. - apparently
Joined: Apr 28, 2006 Posts: 2897 Location: East Texas
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
Raxozanne wrote:
That's a huge jump in temperature. Seriously, if Greenland melts then a lot of humanity is going to go underwater (especially in the Bangladeshi flood plains).
There are two big sources of land ice that could melt and drown large coastal areas, greenland, and antarctica. Someone here probably knows what the sea level rise is for each. Together, they are something like 200+ft; but thats with a complete antarctica melt.
So whats the rise with only greenland becoming ... well... green?
On the gulf stream thing, I know its played up a lot in movies, but it may be over-hyped. There is certainly scientific dispute about what can change the gulf stream, and what would be the result of it moving away from Europe or stopping. That kind of thing really exceeds what the models can reliably spit out at this point in time. It doesn't help the model makers that we have no good historical test cases to shoot for.
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
rwwff wrote:
So whats the rise with only greenland becoming ... well... green?
I'm not sure but if it's over 1 metre then 40 million bangladeshies will have to move shop. _________________ Hello, my name is Rax. I live in the Amazon jungle with a bunch of women. We are super eco feminists and our favourite passtimes are dangling men by their ankles and discussing peak oil. - apparently
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
FishAreBest wrote:
If the Greenland ice melted, sea levels would rise by 5/360 of a km, which is a little under 14 metres.
I don't think it's realistic to say the whole of the ice will melt. Half the ice sounds more reasonable. In which case you'd have 7 meters, which is about what I've heard quoted before.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
Zardoz wrote:
Normal warming, or human-induced this time?
How about a major normal-warming cycle, disastrously supercharged by human activities?
A strong possibility too few people seem willing to consider.
I don't see why this constantly gets framed as an "either/or" question. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Jun 20, 2004 Posts: 250 Location: California
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
Zardoz wrote:
Normal warming, or human-induced this time?
Does it matter? It's a disaster either way.
FWIW studies I've read suggest about 1/3 of net warming since the so-called little ice age is due to CO2 and 2/3 due to increased solar output. So even if we do get CO2 emissions under control, or heading downward, it could still melt. Now if only I could evolve those gills...
Joined: Apr 28, 2006 Posts: 2897 Location: East Texas
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
Heineken wrote:
I don't see why this constantly gets framed as an "either/or" question.
It framed either/or by both sides most of the time. If someone says, "we are currently in an unusually cold climate cycle and we've had an exceptionally long run of the cool weather, so there has always been a good chance that homo sapiens would see the Earth's climate return to its long term average." Then all of a sudden, everyone on the blame mankind side that is persuing it for political rather than scientific reasons sees their baby slipping beneath the bathwater and they panic, and get all righteous and inflamed.
On the other hand, if one says, "the current shift in climate is caused by human activity.."; the reader is given a false impression that if we stopped the activity, the Earth would stay cold.
Think of it like a rubber band held in place by a pin. Humanities removed the pin. Rubber band's on its way forward. Putting the pin back does not recover the rubber band.
Joined: May 15, 2005 Posts: 4142 Location: THE MATRIX
Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
yadda yadda just can't say anything now can we?
99.999999% simply wont do now will it?
Not enough for you to give up your addiction anyways certainly not.
Hell!! you dont even have a problem now do you?
ya see - GW and PO both insist that you will sooner or later realize that you are an addict.
An addict to an unsustainable lifestyle and it will have to change and its gonna hurt when that time comes and I get the weird feeling its just about any day now wether by PO or GW or both.
Who am I kidding - its happening already or none of us would continue to rant here.
Think of it as a brain completely outside of its body - useless - lifeless - programmed to have as little thought as possible - and even when you put the brain back into the body cavity it simply dysfunctions.
Joined: Apr 24, 2006 Posts: 22 Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
rwwff, that's quite a convenient argument. The earth is in a natural warming cycle, and humans are merely subservient to its awesome forces.
Why bear the burden of guilt, which we - Americans in particular - should bear?
But the facts speak for themselves. The earth's typical warming cycle occurs thousands of years slower than the current warming period. Yet you cite prior temperature variations as compelling evidence that humans are powerless to mitigate or - indeed - even induce global warming.
It's quite clear, meanwhile, that manmade pollutants have accelerated the trend to an astonishing degree. If warming were occuring naturally, then your children, and generations to come, wouldn't have to worry about the immediacy and extent of the problem confronting humanity.
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 3068 Location: The Urban Village
Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
Does anyone know if measurements of temperature at the *base* of the Greenland icecap have been monitored ? I just saw a show on volcanic activity and they talked migration of magma chambers beneath the surface and how that causes increase in surface temperatures. It seems like this would melt stuff pretty fast. Or, is the melt attributed and explained only by air temperature increase ?
Joined: Apr 28, 2006 Posts: 2897 Location: East Texas
Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Greenland ice sheet melt is accelerating
Keymaster wrote:
Why bear the burden of guilt, which we - Americans in particular - should bear?
I don't much care about guilt. You can blame me if it makes you feel better.
I really only care about what can happen, and what can not happen.
Quote:
But the facts speak for themselves. The earth's typical warming cycle occurs thousands of years slower than the current warming period. Yet you cite prior temperature variations as compelling evidence that humans are powerless to mitigate or - indeed - even induce global warming.
I think I've been quite clear that humans have indeed tipped the pot. My point is that righting the pot doesn't put the water back.
We have done a lot to accellerate the end of the current cool period; and will continue doing so. I also have commented on numerous discussions that while it seems generally accepted that humans have initiated the warm up, it is only my opinion/hunch that the "switch" has been thown. I think my position will be verified in just a few more years, and my bet is on the results that come out of cloudsat's observations, but it is only a vague hypothesis. On the other hand, there is equally no demonstrateable proof that reducing CO2 emissions will stop the warm up; that position is also only a vague hypothesis.
The biggest issue I have with the current thinking is this blind, wishful thinking that humans on this planet are going to reduce CO2 emissions. While simple observations tell us exactly the opposite is what humans are actually doing. I'd appreciate it if everyone would simply take their blinders off, admit that we are going to rapidly and inefficiently burn off all the oil and as much coal as we can dig out of the ground; accept that, and move on to the real problems of figuring out what the climate is going to look like, and what we need to do as a species in order to survive the result of what we definately are going to do.
I know this sucks as a platform for political action. But reality and physics don't usually care about what is politically expedient.
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