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Graeme
Fission
Joined: Mar 04, 2005
Posts: 2642
Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace
| Quote: | AS the use of nuclear power expands, it will become increasingly ineffective at combating global warming, warns a report by an independent think tank published today .
The Oxford Research Group argues that a worldwide shortage of high- grade uranium ore will force new nuclear reactors to exploit increasingly lower-grade ores for their fuel. Because that requires more energy to extract, the process will result in ever-greater amounts of climate-wrecking pollution.
A report by the Dutch nuclear expert Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen says that, after 2034, the grade of uranium ore being dug out of the ground will fall dramatically. “This will cause nuclear power to become increasingly inefficient and expensive, leading to an increase in carbon dioxide emissions,” he says. |
sundayherald
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Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us. |
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Jack
Dark Lord
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 5085
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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Well! It looks as if nuclear won't save the easy motoring lifestyle after all.
Not that any doomer worthy of his MREs thought it would.... 
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Graeme
Fission
Joined: Mar 04, 2005
Posts: 2642
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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I was just intrigued to see that the G8 are planning to increase global use of nuclear power.
http://www.peakoil.com/article16914.html
But I don't know anything about fast breeders or Accelerator Driven System (ADS) based on thorium to comment further.
| Quote: | At the same time, G8 leaders are proposing to bring back fast breeder reactors, which were scrapped in Germany, France and the UK in the 1990s because they were too expensive. They are designed to create and burn plutonium and are much less reliant on imports of uranium.
The leaked action plan says: “A significant step in promotion of self- sustainable nuclear power would be attained through the development of innovative nuclear power systems based on closed nuclear fuel cycles with fast neutron reactors.” |
Just maybe the G8 are onto something. .
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Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us. |
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EnergyUnlimited
Fusion
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 3121
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| Jack wrote: | Well! It looks as if nuclear won't save the easy motoring lifestyle after all.
Not that any doomer worthy of his MREs thought it would.... |
Don't worry.
Fast breeder technology is likely to establish itself by 2030.
Japaneese are now about to reopen their Monyo facility for example.
We also have thorium cycle. |
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EnergySpin
Fission
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Posts: 2381
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| Graeme wrote: |
A report by the Dutch nuclear expert Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen says that, after 2034, the grade of uranium ore being dug out of the ground will fall dramatically. |
Oh man ... the van der Luddite propaganda lives on
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"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts. |
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Zardoz
Expert
Joined: Dec 02, 2005
Posts: 6417
Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| EnergySpin wrote: | | Oh man ... the van der Luddite propaganda lives on. |
Where, exactly, is all this high-grade ore that you think exists?
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Jack
Dark Lord
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 5085
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| EnergyUnlimited wrote: | | Jack wrote: | Well! It looks as if nuclear won't save the easy motoring lifestyle after all.
Not that any doomer worthy of his MREs thought it would.... |
Don't worry.
Fast breeder technology is likely to establish itself by 2030.
Japaneese are now about to reopen their Monyo facility for example.
We also have thorium cycle. |
Sure. That should keep those three thousand mile salads rolling. 
As peak hits, it should be simplicity itself to scale up nuclear production to take the place of fossil fuels. No problem at all. 
By the way - how is it that one can predict which technologies will develop a quarter-century hence? You see, I'd really like to know so I can invest in them. Get in on the ground floor, so to speak.
Why shouldn't I just invest in controlled fusion? It's supposed to be going nicely by 2030 or so...
But, then again, zero-point energy (whatever THAT is!), is also supposed to save us all.
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EnergySpin
Fission
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Posts: 2381
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| Zardoz wrote: | | EnergySpin wrote: | | Oh man ... the van der Luddite propaganda lives on. |
Where, exactly, is all this high-grade ore that you think exists? |
Fact 1: Uranium is one of the most common metals on earth
Fact 2: If you do the math, the energy profitability of uranium mining is significantly positive for granites (conc 10-20 ppm). For "softer" sources the EROEI is positive (or over unity depending on how you want to do the energy budget) for more diffuse sources. Such sources include the phosphoric rocks, and even the seawater
Fact 3: RTFM ... but it is easier to bitch and moan than exercise critical thinking
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"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts. |
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Jack
Dark Lord
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 5085
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| EnergySpin wrote: | | Zardoz wrote: | | EnergySpin wrote: | | Oh man ... the van der Luddite propaganda lives on. |
Where, exactly, is all this high-grade ore that you think exists? |
Fact 1: Uranium is one of the most common metals on earth
Fact 2: If you do the math, the energy profitability of uranium mining is significantly positive for granites (conc 10-20 ppm). For "softer" sources the EROEI is positive (or over unity depending on how you want to do the energy budget) for more diffuse sources. Such sources include the phosphoric rocks, and even the seawater
Fact 3: RTFM ... but it is easier to bitch and moan than exercise critical thinking |
Fact 1: Really? LINK This referenced site seems to indicate otherwise.
Fact 2: I see. We're going to have eternal energy - eternal, ever-expanding energy - because we can extract all we want from seawater. Isn't it odd that uranium prices continue in an uptrend? How foolish they are! They could get all they want from the sea. Sorry, but I have real doubts about the viability of the scheme.
Fact 3: And easier still to believe in ever-expanding energy supplies.
Still, don't let me discourage you. After all, the last-ditch investment in nuclear energy will make the crash harder. That ain't necessarily a bad thing.
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EnergySpin
Fission
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Posts: 2381
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| Jack wrote: |
Fact 1: Really? LINK This referenced site seems to indicate otherwise.
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I wrote metals not chemical elements. There is a big difference you know ...
According to Cameco
| Quote: |
Uranium is one of the more common elements in the Earth's crust - it is more common than tin, about 40 times more common than silver and 500 times more common than gold.
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It might seem like semantics to you, but I'm sure you never took an inorganic chemistry class in your life 
| Jack wrote: |
Fact 2: I see. We're going to have eternal energy - eternal, ever-expanding energy - because we can extract all we want from seawater. Isn't it odd that uranium prices continue in an uptrend? How foolish they are! They could get all they want from the sea. Sorry, but I have real doubts about the viability of the scheme.
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Phosphoric rocks, coal deposits and shales will be the first targets .... again I presume you took no surface chemistry courses in your lifelong education, but it appears that in the 70s (before the collapse of the price of Uranium), they were being extracted from such sources. The technology has been there for at least 30 years. The seawater front is an interesting one ... if you behave I might give you a traders secret about it , but then I might not 
| Jack wrote: |
Fact 3: And easier still to believe in ever-expanding energy supplies.
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Takes time to read up on the stuff ... it is easier to believe in death cults.
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"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts. |
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Jack
Dark Lord
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 5085
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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[quote="EnergySpin"]
I wrote metals not chemical elements. There is a big difference you know ...
According to Cameco
| Quote: |
Uranium is one of the more common elements in the Earth's crust - it is more common than tin, about 40 times more common than silver and 500 times more common than gold.
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Please note that our references differ.
| EnergySpin wrote: |
It might seem like semantics to you, but I'm sure you never took an inorganic chemistry class in your life
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Absolutely true. I never took an inorganic chemistry class. Instead, I took a CLEP test in the subject and passed same - so I could take an organic chemistry class with a particularly good professor.
| EnergySpin wrote: |
Phosphoric rocks, coal deposits and shales will be the first targets .... again I presume you took no surface chemistry courses in your lifelong education, but it appears that in the 70s (before the collapse of the price of Uranium), they were being extracted from such sources. The technology has been there for at least 30 years. The seawater front is an interesting one ... if you behave I might give you a traders secret about it , but then I might not
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Hmm. Reference, please?
At 4 ppm in granite...that is correct, is it not?...the energy costs to extract it must be significant. Likewise for seawater at 1.3 ppb.
| EnergySpin wrote: |
Takes time to read up on the stuff ... it is easier to believe in death cults. |
Um-hmm. And denial of the upcoming dieoff is ever so much easier than embracing reality.
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Zardoz
Expert
Joined: Dec 02, 2005
Posts: 6417
Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| EnergySpin wrote: | | ...RTFM... |
Seems we need to read no further than this:
If it's so plentiful, why is it getting so expensive?
Do the laws of supply and demand apply to the nuclear fuel market?
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"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen |
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EnergySpin
Fission
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Posts: 2381
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| Jack wrote: |
Please note that our references differ.
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I did notice that ... and I also noticed that your reference suggests we should go after hydrogen because it is so abundant in the earth crust
You could also try the USGS geologic survey to locate more info about the relative availability of metals. IIRC Uranium ranks #13 ....
| Jack wrote: |
Hmm. Reference, please?
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Man how many times do I have to post the same stuff ?
In any case, the antinuclear WISE project has the info for you ...
http://www.wise-uranium.org/purec.html
8 plants were built and operated in the USA during the 70s but were subsequently closed when the price of the ore collapsed ...
Happy reading ... since you took the CLEP you can navigate through the page.
Regarding the energy costs ... I refuse to re-iterate the same stuff that has been written again and again; you may use the search button.
But the Japanese are going full steam with the seawater stuff ... the y filed (and were awarded a patent) a couple of years ago. A spin-off company was also formed 18 months ago....
I presume this is not useful info for MRE fanatics
_________________
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts. |
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Zardoz
Expert
Joined: Dec 02, 2005
Posts: 6417
Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| EnergySpin wrote: | | ...you may use the search button... |
Okay:
Why nuclear power cannot be a major energy source
"There is enough usable uranium ore in the ground to sustain the present trivial rate of consumption - a mere 2-1/2 percent of all the world's final energy demand - and to fulfill its waste-management obligations, for around 45 years. However, to make a difference - to make a real contribution to postponing or mitigating the coming energy winter - nuclear energy would have to supply the energy needed for (say) the whole of the world's electricity supply. It could do so - but there are deep uncertainties as to how long this could be sustained.
"The best estimate (pretending for a moment that all the needed nuclear power stations could be built at the same time and without delay) is that the global demand for electricity could be supplied from nuclear power for about six years, with margins for error of about two years either way."
Jack, where can we find the best prices on MREs these days?
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"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen |
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Jack
Dark Lord
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 5085
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Lower grade uranium could hasten climate change pace |
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| Zardoz wrote: |
Jack, where can we find the best prices on MREs these days? |
I think it's always a good idea to keep track of sources. The best place I've found for that info is at: http://www.mreinfo.com/
Given the general unwillingness to accept our upcoming powerdown, I may have to inquire about purchasing a pallet load. (I'm kidding - sorta...)
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Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn! |
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