How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Well, this is one of those perennial questions, but re. the racking of the pump-action shotgun: If that is your "go-to" weapon, it should already be loaded. If someone is breaking into your house, they shouldn't get a chance to hear the racking. My go-to guns have one in the chamber at all times. But to each their own.
davep wrote:
When I finally get my permit in Italy I'll be allowed three weapons.
What would you recommend for:
- 12 Gauge
- Semi-Auto
- Pistol
There are lots of excellent firearms out there. I have no idea what's available in Italy (other than Berettas and Ubertis, of course). I don't have much experience with Beretta 92s. I'm a Glock guy--they fit my hand well, they are extremely reliable, and they are easy to operate and to maintain. I like the G19. I also really like CZ75s, which may be available in your area. Sig and HK also make excellent handguns. Your wife should be fine with anything chambered for 9mm. I concur with smallpoxgirl's dislike of external safeties--I prefer the Glock's "safe action" trigger or the CZ75BD's decocker.
For shotguns, as a rule, pump-actions are much more reliable than semis. I've owned a Winchester 1300, Remington 870, and a Mossberg 500 (all pump-actions). All are fine shotguns. They do tend to kick a bit, though you can get low recoil ammunition if your wife has a problem with the recoil. But if you're going to rely on a pump-action for a self-defense weapon, you should practice with it on a regular basis. It's really easy to short-stroke a pump when under pressure. I personally don't have much use for shotguns--very little that they can do that a rifle or pistol won't do better.
As for rifles, it will really depend on what's available in your area and what's in your price range. I prefer ARs. Your wife shouldn't have any problem shooting one as .223 has a very mild recoil--there are also a number of .22lr conversion kits available for cheap practice. I'm also a big fan of M1As, though .308 may be a bit much for some women (and some men, too). FALs, AKs, and HK91s are also all fine rifles. If you can, test it out before you buy.
As for pistol-caliber rifles: Rifle rounds > pistol rounds. There's just no getting around that basic fact. Pistol rounds are significantly weaker than rifle rounds. I suggest you check out the Box of Truth if you want to see for yourself. If you're going to get a rifle, get a rifle, not a pistol with a stock and a long barrel. I can see getting a pistol-caliber rifle like the Storm if you are allowed to get as many firearms as possible, but since you seem to be limited to 3 firearms, get something in .223, 7.62x39, or .308 (or whatever other rifle round is most readily available in your area).
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 1185 Location: Burgundy, France
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Thanks for the link to the Box O' Truth, it was very enlightening (and quite funny).
I've now seen the light as far as proper rifle calibre rounds are concerned. I'll bear it in mind.
BTW, somebody mentioned that a .22 air gun has better stopping power than a .177. However, if I get one here (without using up one of my three precious gun allowances) I will be limited to a certain power (7 joules?), for either calibre. Therefore the .177 will have a flatter trajectory and higher muzzle velocity.
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 354 Location: Mississippi Delta
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Quote:
What we can get in NZ
You have my most sincere sympathy. I'm afraid there's not much more I can add.
davep, a 9mm carbine might well have a place in a home defense plan, but if I were limited to three, I'd have to go with something with a bit more reach and penetrating power.
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Why limit yourself to 3??
Do you only keep 3 dishes? 3 tools in your toolbox? Do you only have 3 pair of underwear or 3 shirts?
Firearms are tools, like anything else. I'll buy as many tools to do the jobs I feel I need to do.
A good rifle, a good combat rifle, a good shotgun, a good pistol and a small game getter at a minimum. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Pops, I think Specop was referring to davep's statement that he wanted advice on buying 3 guns. According to what davep said and this site, Italians are only allowed to own 3 guns if they have a permit.
Davep, can you elaborate on Italian gun laws? I came across a site that said guns that use 9x19 ammunition (9mm) are not allowed. Is this correct?
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
223 Ruger Mini-14, with barrel stabilizer and match trigger
7.5mm Swiss K31 with scope
9mm handgun, Taurus PT99 _________________ "I eat the pretzel, it get stuck in the throat and I pass out..." - George W Bush
March 7, 2007 Remarks by the President to Political Appointees
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
If I'm limited to three, I'm going with a couple oldies but goodies. First on my list is the gun I'm best with. That would be my Mossberg 500a with the nickel satin finish. I regularly make the $2000 shotgun bearers with their fancy shooting vests and all that bullshit blush with shame when I open up on those poor defenseless orange clays and bust six of them into a thousand pieces in ten seconds or less while they miss at least half of them, and spend at least a couple minutes looking stupid while they do it.
Sunday, I got a standing ovation from the peanut gallery when I rocked my six for six three times in a row, handed my shotty to my friend who proceeded to miss every farking clay that got airborne for the rest of the day. I'm absolutely king of the trap hill with that thing. Also, I can ring the gong at 100 yards with it instinctively. It's my best weapon and I am really farking good with it. I would very much like to compete with it professionally, and I might get into it if it pays me like playing poker does.
How the Fark do you miss in trap? The only way I miss is if I get bored and forget to point it in the right direction.
Next up on my list is my Glock 19 in 9mm. I've lived with that gun for 20 years and it's an act of God to make me drop one outside of the black on the human silhouette at 7 yards, which is the appropriate range for that firearm. A navy Seal taught me to empty the magazine at each target, starting low and working my way up and to the right allowing the recoil to move the firearm across my target. I like it that way and practice doing that when I can.
Last but not least is a rifle. Unfortunately, my Garand is new to me and I really need to snuggle up with it and make it my own. I don't have a lot of money right now to buy $14 boxes of 20 rounds and just blow it open and see how it does its thing. I sleep with it under my bed and all that kind of weird crap, and I'm kind of happy that way. Over time I will make it my own and bang the gong at 100 yards from a standing position in one second. The second objective is to bang the gong at 200 yards from a concealed position 8 for 8 in ten seconds or less. My final goal, to be realized within one year, is to bang the gong at 300 yards 8 times in one minute AND to bang the gong at 200 yards 8 times in 30 seconds, and 8 times in ten seconds at 100 yards right after doing 25 pushups and running a mile. That is what I would consider to be basic competency.
I guess we'll see how I do over time. I can't do any of that crap right now so this would be a marked improvement over my current ability.
At the moment, I carry a .38 derringer every day, every time I walk out the door. Whether I'm working at the insurance company in customer service or humping a 50# sack of rice up and down the hills in my neighborhood, or whether I'm out for a drink with my friends, my right front pocket is filled up with two shots of .38 sp and that's how I roll.
Maybe I've been spending too much time in South Central.
But maybe not. Maybe I've been spending just as much time there as I need to.
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Here's an interesting video taken of some contractors "sniping" in Iraq. These are clearly contractors, not servicemen.
They are apparently shooting at targets as far out as 800m at some points, using 223s. Watch it and see what you think.
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 1185 Location: Burgundy, France
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I've been looking into the Italian laws and apparently you can have three weapons if you get a "common" permit.
However, if you're in a shooting club (which I'm in the process of joining) you can have six if you apply for a "sport" licence.
If you get a hunting licence you can have unlimited weapons. That can wait though, as I think my capacities, budget and wife won't allow more than six at the moment.
I think there's a limit to the number of cartridges per magazine for semi-auto rifles in Italy (I'm not sure what it is though). I also think that semi-auto shotguns are limited in capacity as well.
You can have infinite guns with any magazine if you're a "collector". The only down-side is that you can't buy ammo...
I'm thinking of joining the local IPSC, which sounds fun.
I think it's the 9 mm parabellum (9 mm Luger) that's banned. 9x21 etc seems OK.
As far as ammo storage is cocerned, you're allowed a maximum of 200 pistol-grade cartridges and 1000 rifle-grade (another reason to avoid 9mm carbines).
I know that self-loading (called ricarica, which tickles me for some reason) is allowed, but there are rules as to how much powder you can store (3kg?). Does anybody out there have any more details? My Italian is awful and I'm getting a headache reading babelfish translations. Try this passage for size:
"E' possible to stop until to a maximum of 3 common crews from I talk nonsense, 6 you arm to sportswoman and limitless number with guns from hunting. The possessed crews cannot be capacities outside from the detainment place, in case an appropriate one is not possessed tito it."
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Hello to everybody, I'm a log time lurker in this site but maybe now I can help davep. BTW I'm Italian.
Davep, welcome to our bureaucracy jungle!!!
Don't try to understand, simply comply (like women)!
I'll try to summarize our laws to you:
*** Yes, 9 parabellum is a forbidden caliber, this is the only and last one. Why? They say it is a "war caliber"... We have italian 9X21 with the same performances and only a 2mm longer case. BTW 9para can be fired in a 9X21 weapon, but this is illegal. The opposite is not physically possible.
*** If you are not a collector (and it is very complicated to become and useless for our purposes) with a permit you can possess:
-unlimited hunting guns (armi da caccia) plus...
-6 sporting guns (armi sportive) plus...
-3 common guns (armi comuni)
*Hunting guns are: (a) ANY shotgun, 12 gauge or smaller (16, 20...) UNLESS models with folding stock or very short barrel. This makes them a "common guns" (b) ANY rifle, excluding very very small bore: .22lr or less
*Sporting guns: usually are handguns with looooong barrel. Or .22lr rifles. Or big bore target rifles. Or even pistols/revolvers sporting adjustable sights. Well...this group is not easy to define.
*Common guns: mainly pistols & revolvers.
***About the permit: get a "licenza di caccia" (license to hunt) or "licenza di tiro sportivo" (license to sport shooting). Either allow to buy any weapons I listed above: a hunting gun using a sporting gun and vice-versa. I strongly advise to have "licenza di tiro sportivo", less complicate and cheaper (but this doesn't mean "not complicated and cheap"!!!)
For instance, I got a “licenza di tiro sportivo”. I paid 200 euro taxes + 2 months waiting and TWO medical examinations. With it I bought a CZ75BD (common gun) and will have soon a FAL (hunting gun).
These 2 permits last 6 years.
***Weapon capacity: shotguns have no limit if you keep them in your home. For hunting you can insert max 2+1 in the chamber.
Each rifle and pistol can LEGALLY accept a magazine with a certain max capacity, EG: Glock17>17 round mag, Glock34>19, FAL>10, Rem700>5.
Hunting with rifles means you insert 2 round max too. Hunt with handguns is not allowed.
davep wrote:
As far as ammo storage is concerned, you're allowed a maximum of 200 pistol-grade cartridges and 1000 rifle-grade (another reason to avoid 9mm carbines).
Not exactly: you can have *1500* rifle ammo plus 200 pistol ammo, BUT owning a carbine in a pistol caliber (such as a Beretta CX4 in 9X21) allows you to possess up to *1500* rounds 9X21 instead of 200 for a only-pistol owner. This could be a good idea for your wife.
We cannot cumulate 1500 round limits: having a FAL (.308) and a AR15 (.223) means you can possess 700 .308 + 800 .223 = 1.500 cartridges
davep wrote:
I know that self-loading (called ricarica, which tickles me for some reason
I imagine “rica-rica” is a funny word for you but it is something more like ri-carica (re-load). Probably the 3 kg limit is right, (or maybe 2 kg???): I find it a very dangerous practice, avoid like plague and ignore it at all.
This is the best I can do. Well, the whole matter is that complicated, in the end Contact me for further informations, if you need.
Sorry for everyone else not interested in our wonderful law system, I tried to be as short as possible.
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Thanks for the info, Carlo, I found it interesting. I read somewhere that Italy had the strictest gun laws in Europe, but it looks like the UK is more restrictive (based on my limited understanding of UK gun laws).
How much do guns cost there? How much would a FAL or CZ75 cost?
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Surely UK after Dunblane massacre adopted the hardest european law about guns. If I'm right they can have only .22lr PISTOLS and the weapons must be at least 50 cm long. (!!) We have a long and complicated system, but in the end we can get AK47, FAL, G3, AR15 etc...that are forbidden for instance in France and we can have them in UNLIMITED quantity!!
Our lobby of gun producers and hunters is doing a good job
CZ75 new>650 euro
FAL>600-800 euro
but they are 2 of the best deals here:
Spring. M14>2.500
HK91>7-8.000 euro (!!! !!!)
Benelli M4>1.500!!
Generally prices are 20-30% higher than in US, EVEN for guns produced HERE.
I don't ask why, simply accept the facts
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