I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
They've been getting away with selling people a lethally poisonous compound that addicts them as strongly as any substance on earth, and until recently they've been completely immune to even civil suits.
They're still immune to prosecution, though. Money talks! _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Joined: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 1001 Location: Down Under
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Banning smoking in public is a violation of basic freedoms. Refusing work to smokers is simply insane.
Roy wrote:
Granted, overweight people don't affect my health directly as does second hand smoke,
Actually, it appears that the damage caused by passive smoking is a bunch of B.S. propaganda hyped by the anti-smoking lobby.
http://www.forestonline.org/output/Page258.asp
The fact is there is no scientific data to back up the “fact” that passive smoking is a direct cause for lung cancer or heart disease.
Can you imagine if junk food consumption was banned in public places because healthy eaters don’t want to risk getting fat? It’s ridiculous, and yet this is exactly what has happened with smoking.
Now breathing in carbon monoxide is a different story. Exhaust fumes from cars are absolutely harmful to your health. So if everyone is so concerned about health, why isn’t there a push to ban cars in highly populated areas? It would sure as crap be more beneficial then banning smoking! _________________ "Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 2106 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Planet's going down the chute with noxious gases and they do this!
What's with our polly's.....they doin the old Dutch boy and dyke routine? _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Next thing you know, strip clubs will want to discriminate against ugly girls. Security agencies will discriminate against cripples (I mean people with disabilities). Restaurants will discriminate against alcoholics!
People have the right to discriminate against whoever the hell they want. Only they know who the right person is for the job, not the courts.
Joined: Aug 04, 2005 Posts: 429 Location: Traded the man in front of the tank for a cat playing the banjo
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
RonMN wrote:
It will begin as "you smoke, you can't work here" and before you know it...it will be "you're black, you can't work here".
Isn’t that already happening?
Instead of telling you “look in the mirror, do you really expect us to give you that job?” They say. “Thank you! We’ll keep your CV and call you if we ever have a position to cover.”
And I agree with the opinion that they don’t do it “for your own good” but for the benefit.
If there was a drug that’d make you work more and did you lots of harm no one would ever do anything to prevent you from taking it. Caffeine is very bad for you. Try to quitting caffeine and you’ll get terrible headaches and bad temper for more than a week. Why? You are hooked to caffeine. Does your employee care about that? No. He installs a coffee machine and a coke machine near you and offers as much free coffee as you can take. “Hey you seem tired, why don’t you take a cup of coffee?” _________________ When someone interprets as derogatory almost anything that is said about him (or about groups with whom he identifies) we conclude that he has inferiority feelings or low self-esteem.
Joined: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 1001 Location: Down Under
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:26 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Jaws wrote:
People have the right to discriminate against whoever the hell they want.
Where do we draw the line? Ethnic groups being forced to sit at the back of the bus? Minority groups being euthanized in neo-Nazi death camps?
Employers should have the right to limit their employees smoke breaks (or any kind of break), but they should not have the right to not employ someone based on something completely irrelevant to the job. _________________ "Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3429 Location: California, USA
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
I'm with Aaron and with Doly here. A job is a job, not an opportunity for employers to engage in social engineering. The only relevant criterion is, can you do the work at the expected level of proficiency? What you do on your breaks (as long as you don't take excessive breaks) and what you do at home and in bed and by yourself in the bathroom, are your own damn business and noone else's.
This antismoking thing is obnoxious scapegoating. It's feel-good-ism by obnoxious puritans serving their psychological need for pleasure via righteous superiority. Stress kills far more people than cigarettes and, like caffein, stress is actively promoted. Meanwhile you get a ticket for smoking on the sidewalk, and the street is clogged with cars spewing crap into the air: so you see, it's not about smoke, it's about what kind of smoke. Count on a puritan culture to stigmatise/blame/punish behaviors that people do for their own enjoyment, whilst equivalent hazards foisted upon people against their will go along protected.
In any case, with 6.5 billion humans on a planet that can support perhaps 2 billion, the fetish for longevity is worse than absurd, it's as suicidal as a fetish for having lots of babies.
I say lower the smoking age to 16, the drinking age to 18, legalize opiates as well as marijuana, set the legal age for those at 18, and let people do whatever the hell they please. THEN also, the moment any person recieves a life-saving medical intervention, *SNIP*, they get spayed or neutered at the same time. Since, after all, in wild nature they would have been out of the gene pool via being dead, we're going to do them a favor and keep them alive but too darn bad for their precious DNA.
As for employers sticking their fingers into their employees' bodies, that's one of the reasons I'm in business for myself: freedom from the twisted desires of zealous puritans with IQs three standard deviations below mine.
And if anyone asks, "Urine and blood samples given for taste tests only." Let 'em, er, uh, chew on that one.
What really surprises me is the number of control freaks in this forum who support all manner of infringements on personal liberty, using all manner of lame excuses. One of these days they are going to find themselves on the receiving end of that, but by then it will be too late, and no one will hear them scream.
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
gg3 wrote:
What really surprises me is the number of control freaks in this forum who support all manner of infringements on personal liberty, using all manner of lame excuses. One of these days they are going to find themselves on the receiving end of that, but by then it will be too late, and no one will hear them scream.
"And when they took the First Amendment away, there was no-one left to speak up."
Spot-on with everything else you said, too.
Unfortunately, I don't think it doesn't matter whether or not the EC is right or wrong in its treatment of smokers, its about whether it thinks it has sufficient power/resources to back up its position. _________________ "We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
FYI, drug danger rating published in the Independent newspaper, UK, ca. one week ago.
It clearly shows how society is in denial on socially acceptable drugs (alcohol), and the witch-process employed to harmless drugs.
I switched from smoke tobacco to smokeless a year ago, as there is no evidence that snuff is dangerous. However, in all EU countries except Sweden this cigarette nicotine substitute has been made illigal (to sell), and my country, Norway, it is still legal as we are still luckily outside the EU.
The tobacco company lobbyists must have done a good job with eu lawmakers to make them make a mostly harmless (and always harmless to surroundings) tobacco substitute illegal, and continue to sell the bad stuff.
Here we go:
Drugs: the real deal
This is the first ranking based upon scientific evidence of harm to both individuals and society. It was devised by government advisers - then ignored by ministers because of its controversial findings .Published: 01 August 2006
1: Heroin (Class A)
ORIGIN: Vast majority comes from poppy fields of Afghanistan
MEDICAL: Sedative made from the opium poppy. Can be smoked or injected to produce a 'rush'. Users feel lethargic but experience severe cravings for the drug
NO. OF UK USERS: 40,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 744
STREET VALUE: £30-100 a gram
DANGER RATING: 2.75/3
2: Cocaine (Class A)
ORIGIN: Made from coca shrubs from Colombia and Bolivia
MEDICAL: Stimulant made from leaves of the coca bush. Increases alertness and confidence but raises heart rate and blood pressure and users will crave it
NO. OF UK USERS: 800,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 147
STREET VALUE: £30-55 a gram
DANGER RATING: 2.25/3
3: Barbiturates (Class B)
ORIGIN: Synthetic lab-made drugs, used to be prominent in clubs
MEDICAL:Powerful sedatives. Widely prescribed as sleeping pills but dangerous in overdose and now superseded by safer drugs
NO. OF UK USERS: Not many
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 14
STREET VALUE: £1-2 a tablet
DANGER RATING: 2.10/3
4: Street Methadone (Class A)
ORIGIN: Synthetic drug similar to heroin but less addictive
MEDICAL: Similar to morphine and heroin and used to wean addicts off these drugs because it is less sedating. Street versions may be contaminated
NO. OF UK USERS: 20,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 200
STREET VALUE: £2 a dose
DANGER RATING: 1.90/3
5: Alcohol (Legal)
ORIGIN: Brewed across the world in many different forms
MEDICAL:Central nervous system depressant used to reduce inhibitions and increase sociability. Increasing doses lead to intoxication, coma and respiratory failure
NO. OF UK USERS: Most adults
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 22,000
STREET VALUE: £2.25 pint of lager
DANGER RATING: 1.85/3
6: Ketamine (Class C)
ORIGIN: Anaesthetic drug popular on club and rave scene
MEDICAL:Intravenous anaesthetic used on humans and animals which, when taken in tablet form, creates hallucinatory experiences
NO. OF UK USERS: Unknown
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: £15-50 a gram
DANGER RATING: 1.80/3
7: Benzodiazopines (Class C)
ORIGIN: Tranquilisers used to beat anxiety and insomnia
MEDICAL:The most common prescription tranquillisers. Effective sedatives which have a calming effect, reducing anxiety, but are addictive
NO. OF UK USERS: 160,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 206
STREET VALUE: Prescription drug
DANGER RATING: 1.75/3
8: Amphetamines (Class B)
ORIGIN: Synthetic stimulants snorted, mixed in drink or injected
MEDICAL:Man-made drugs that increase heart rate and alertness. Users may feel paranoid. Newer form, methamphetamine, is addictive
NO. OF UK USERS: 650,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 33
STREET VALUE: £2-10 a gram
DANGER RATING: 1.70/3
9: Tobacco (Legal)
ORIGIN: Most of the leaf comes from the Americas
MEDICAL: Contains nicotine, a fast-acting stimulant which is highly addictive. Tobacco causes lung cancer and increases the risk of heart disease
NO. OF UK USERS: 12.5m
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 114,000
STREET VALUE: £4.50 a packet
DANGER RATING: 1.65/3
10: Buprenorphine (Class C)
ORIGIN: Can be made in a laboratory
MEDICAL: More expensive alternative to methadone used to wean addicts off heroin. Preferred by some addicts because it leaves them more 'clear headed'
NO. OF UK USERS: Unknown
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: Unknown
DANGER RATING: 1.55/3
11: Cannabis (Class C)
ORIGIN: Plant is easily cultivated in temperate climates
MEDICAL: Leaves of the cannabis sativa plant or resin can be smoked or eaten. It is a relaxant but stronger forms can also cause hallucinations and panic attacks
NO. OF UK USERS: 3m
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 16
£40-100 an ounce
DANGER RATING: 1.40/3
12: Solvents (Legal)
ORIGIN: Organic compounds found in glues, paints, lighter fluid
MEDICAL: Includes glue, gas lighters, some aerosols and paint thinners. Produces euphoria and loss of inhibitions but can cause blackouts and death
NO. OF UK USERS: 37,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 53
STREET VALUE: £9.99 a tin of paint
DANGER RATING: 1.35/3
13: 4-MTA (Class A)
ORIGIN: Amphetamine derivative; similar effects to ecstasy
MEDICAL: Amphetamine derivative, similar to ecstasy, and also known as 'flatliners'. Popular dance drug, producing feelings of euphoria
NO. OF UK USERS: Unknown
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: Unknown
DANGER RATING: 1.30/3
14: LSD (Class A)
ORIGIN: Hallucinogenic, synthetic drug more popular in 1960s
MEDICAL: Man-made drug that has a strong effect on perception. Effects include hallucinations and loss of sense of time. A 'bad trip' can cause anxiety
NO. OF UK USERS: 70,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: £1-5 a tab
DANGER RATING: 1.25/3
15: Methylphenidate (Class B)
ORIGIN: Medicine, similar to amphetamines
MEDICAL: The chemical name for Ritalin, the stimulant drug used to treat children with attention deficit hyperactive disorder which helps them concentrate
NO. OF UK USERS: Unknown
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: Unknown
DANGER RATING: 1.20/3
16: Anabolic Steroids (Class C)
ORIGIN: Hormones used by bodybuilders and sportsmen
MEDICAL: Synthetic drugs that have a similar effect to hormones such as testosterone. Used by body builders to increase muscle bulk
NO. OF UK USERS: 38,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: £7.99 a tablet
DANGER RATING: 1.15/3
17: GHB (Class C)
ORIGIN: Synthetic drug, sold as 'liquid ecstasy'
MEDICAL: The date rape drug, Gammahydroxybutyrate, is a sedative that has a relaxing effect, reducing inhibitions, but can lead to stiff muscles and fits
NO. OF UK USERS: Not many
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 3
STREET VALUE: £15 a bottle
DANGER RATING: 1.10/3
18: Ecstasy (Class A)
ORIGIN: Synthetic drug in tablets; popular in dance scene
MEDICAL: MDMA or similar man-made chemicals. Causes adrenaline rushes and feelings of wellbeing but also anxiety and high body temperature
NO. OF UK USERS: 800,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 33
STREET VALUE: £1-5 a pill
DANGER RATING: 1.05/3
19: Alkyl Nitrites (Legal)
ORIGIN: Liquid, better known as 'poppers'; inhaled
MEDICAL: Gives a strong, joyous rush and a burst of energy for a few minutes which quickly fades and can leave a powerful headache
NO. OF UK USERS: 550,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: £2-6 for 10ml
DANGER RATING: 0.95/3
20: Khat (Legal)
ORIGIN: Green-leaf shrub grown in region of Southern Africa
MEDICAL: Natural stimulant, its leaves are chewed to produce a feeling of wellbeing and happiness. Popular with the Somali community
NO. OF UK USERS: 40,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: Not many
STREET VALUE: £4 a bunch
DANGER RATING: 0.80/3
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
oddone wrote:
FYI, drug danger rating published in the Independent newspaper, UK, ca. one week ago.
For the data listed which had numbers for both users and number of deaths, here are the percentages:
Code:
1: Heroin (Class A) 40,000 744 1.86%
4: Street Methadone (Class A) 20,000 200 1.00%
9: Tobacco (Legal) 12,500,000 114,000 0.91%
3: Barbiturates (Class B) 2,000 14 0.70%
2: Cocaine (Class A) 800,000 1,473 0.18%
12: Solvents (Legal) 37,000 53 0.14%
7: Benzodiazopines (Class C) 160,000 206 0.13%
5: Alcohol (Legal) 36,000,000 22,000 0.06%
8: Amphetamines (Class B) 650,000 33 0.01%
18: Ecstasy (Class A) 800,000 33 0.004%
11: Cannabis (Class C) 3,000,000 16 0.001%
I used 2,000 as "not many" for barbituates, and for alcohol I used 75% of the UK population over 15, roughly 48 million people. _________________ "We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Ketamine?
Geeze... isn't that used by Vets? _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
What pisses me off is not so much the discrimination, but the outright theft through "sin taxes".
It's OK for the puritanical whackos to steal directly from my wallet through the government to pay for their stupid children to be schooled about creationism, but it's not OK for me to pick my poison. WTF
Sin taxes should be outlawed as they are completely unjust.
Or maybe the real sin taxes should be applied to things that are actually sins, such as violations of the natural world around us.
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Omnitir wrote:
Employers should have the right to limit their employees smoke breaks (or any kind of break), but they should not have the right to not employ someone based on something completely irrelevant to the job.
How the hell do you know what is or isn't relevant to the job? You're not the one hiring.
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
First off, in regard to the health budget cost of smoking:
"""
In the UK, the tobacco industry generated over £10bn in tax revenue in 1998, enough to pay for three quarters of the Education and Employment Budget.
"""
So, in 1999, a quarter of the entire british health system budget was earned by the government on tobacco tax alone.
If everyone stopped smoking the average country would go bankrupt, as the savings on health costs would take years to appear. if any government was serious they'd ban it outright.
Having given up smoking, I can say it was one of the hardest things I ever had to do. It's a creeping addiction, you're fine for a month after giving up and then all of a sudden the craving reappears, sometimes in a moment of weakness like down the pub.
On the discrimination issue, as far as i am concerned, if someone doesn't want to employ someone then so be it. Why force someone to hire you who doesn't want you anyway? Do you want to work in such a place?
Political Correctness and discrimination laws don't help at all IMO.
If anything, they create resentment and hate, not to mention they are used as a form of censorship.
Just because someone says to me I cannot publicly state something, doesn't mean I am not thinking it or will say it in private.
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