How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Because the Power Elite is afraid we may hurt them
28%
[ 25 ]
Because the power elite is afraid we may hurt ourselves
6%
[ 6 ]
Because crime would rise
8%
[ 8 ]
Because we don’t need guns (if we needed them they’d be legal)
23%
[ 21 ]
Because we don’t live in a free country
21%
[ 19 ]
Other, please specify
11%
[ 10 ]
Total Votes : 89
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Message
Grifter Intermediate Crude
Joined: Mar 29, 2006 Posts: 817 Location: England
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
diogenes wrote:
Well, if the U.S. government turned truly despotic, it would face asymmetric warfare in many areas. Not everywhere, of course, but it doesn't have to be "everywhere" to be impossible to fight. This sort of fighting means that the superiority of the government's arms may be irrelevant, as we see in Iraq.
We maight see much more in Iraq, if US Army really decides to win this war (or just to make a point here or there).
We do not see it now, only because US government is not sufficiently despotic now.
Once it goes a Nazi way (and I think, that it is probably inevitable in medium term future - say 20 years or so), there will be completely another story.
I want you to be wrong but think you might be right. It all depends on whether the majority of people in the US wake up and have the balls to say no.
The venezualan military would not fire on their civilians after the corporate coup which removed chavez. I don't think the military cared who was in the government, they just wouldn't fire on their own people, and Chavez was returned.
It all depends on timing and like I said, I hope you are wrong.
Joined: May 15, 2005 Posts: 4144 Location: THE MATRIX
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
I do not buy "scared governments" arguments.
You see, GOVERNMENT HAS HEAVIER GUNS.
If US government had really turned despotic (what is very likely in near future), no rebellion would have more than a tiny chance to succeed.
I cannot really imagine "fat cats" of "disturbed consumer mindset" capable to challenge with a handgun US special forces and gestappo alike FBI.
And remember: if worst comes, than "centres of resistance" would be cluster bombed or nuked.
Exactly.
And that is why the next revolution will be a mental revolution.
If the US right to bear arms kept pace with technology we would all have an ICBM in the back yard.
You do not have guns because your rulers learned a very valueable lesson watching the english with their "greatest army the world has known to date" get its ass handed to them by some ragged yet very determined american militia men.
If only america had learned the same lessons.......... _________________ It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
Because the last time we kicked on guns like militaristic freaks our governments found it a piece of cake to use us as cannon fodder and we killed 60 million (of our own) people. We have learned our lesson. We are grown up adults now.
That is, atheist, anti-militarist and wise. That is also why we are at the forefront of human civilisation. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
lorenzo wrote:
Because the last time we kicked on guns like militaristic freaks our governments found it a piece of cake to use us as cannon fodder and we killed 60 million (of our own) people. We have learned our lesson. We are grown up adults now.
That is, atheist, anti-militarist and wise. That is also why we are at the forefront of human civilisation.
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1654 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
I do not buy "scared governments" arguments.
You see, GOVERNMENT HAS HEAVIER GUNS.
If US government had really turned despotic (what is very likely in near future), no rebellion would have more than a tiny chance to succeed.
I cannot really imagine "fat cats" of "disturbed consumer mindset" capable to challenge with a handgun US special forces and gestappo alike FBI.
And remember: if worst comes, than "centres of resistance" would be cluster bombed or nuked.
Most of the military men and women I know (and, incidentally, many of the policemen and women) are pretty conservative and desperately protective of our freedoms. They put up with George's abuses of power for now, because he's a Republican; but if things ever got really bad, for instance if the government ever tried to confiscate private arms, we'd have a real civil war on our hands. It wouldn't be just us "disturbed consumers" (I like that...) but many in the armed forces as well. I think the government ever confiscating weapons is a political impossibility in this country. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
lorenzo wrote:
Because the last time we kicked on guns like militaristic freaks our governments found it a piece of cake to use us as cannon fodder and we killed 60 million (of our own) people. We have learned our lesson. We are grown up adults now.
That is, atheist, anti-militarist and wise. That is also why we are at the forefront of human civilisation.
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
In the States, the move for gun abolition began with the assassination of President Kennedy. Five years later Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were assassinated. The left never forgave the gun toting crowd for the end of Camelot and the death of our crown princes and our Gandhi. The movement gained momentum with Patrick Purdy and John Hinkley. The argument was made that in modern times that huge police forces made the notion of self defense obsolete. The bill of goods sold by the left was that gun abolition would make us all safe. Academia fell in behind this argument with some notable exceptions such as Professor Sanford Levinson. http://www.guncite.com/journals/embar.html For the most part, most law professors subscribed to the notion that the second amendment conferred a collective right on the body politic, a right that was best serviced by the military and police.
Then came Tim McVeigh with his truck load of fertilizer and Mohammed Atta with his box cutters. These fellows pretty well proved that total abolition of firearms would not make a society safe.
New Orleans dropped the curtain and exposed the myth that in time of crisis big government could or would step in and protect its citizens.
The trend is now moving in the opposite direction with many Americans arming themselves in order to protect themselves against the lone criminal and expected social unrest. My own state has a concealed weapons carry law and has strengthened the rights of an individual to protect his life or the life of another with deadly force. The statute goes so far as to shield persons utilizing this right from civil suit.
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
diogenes wrote:
Well, if the U.S. government turned truly despotic, it would face asymmetric warfare in many areas. Not everywhere, of course, but it doesn't have to be "everywhere" to be impossible to fight. This sort of fighting means that the superiority of the government's arms may be irrelevant, as we see in Iraq.
Yep. People forget that warfare is politics by other means. Wars are not generally won by brute military force, particularly when guerrilla warfare is involved.
Gridlock wrote:
The police don't want to be routinely armed, I'm pretty sure most people don't want to be here, therefore better to ban them.
Joined: Jun 22, 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Brighton, UK
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
In England, I do not think having guns as self defence would create a more civil society. In fact our laws even prevent a house owner beating the crap out of a burglar with an umbrella for fear of reprisals of being sued by the criminal.
There was a case of a farmer, a few years back, shooting and killing a burglar in the back (he was running away) with a shotgun and he went to jail for murder.
In Paris I have personally seen a woman shoot a man in the leg simply because he did not like the way she was vilely treating her dog and attempted to take it away from her.
I think these two examples show that guns and emotions make a very bad mix in situations where unessacery deaths would be the outcome whereas they could have been handled by the authorities.
I do not hold much faith in the common sense of joe or jane public and allowing them guns scares the bejeezus out of me. For one thing guns get stolen and we would then only be arming the criminals ourselves.
Joined: Jun 22, 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Brighton, UK
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
frood wrote:
For one thing guns get stolen and we would then only be arming the criminals ourselves.
Criminals are already armed. Should they steal a gun, they would only have more arms.
No, criminals are not already armed with guns. Not all criminals are gangsters or stick up men, the majority are simply common scum armed with knives and we have a lot of this. However, yes we are seeing more crimes commited with fatalities from guns but its still a rare thing generally in the UK.
Most crimes done with guns are usually blankfirers to intimadate the victim. I had one friend who worked in an off- license and had a BB gun stuck in his face, he saw it and tried to do the man over but got pistol whipped for his efforts.
Yet if due to home ownership of guns we see more crimes commited with real guns I would think this was more down to easier accesibility of guns through fake ID or simply stealing them from those that officialy bought them.
Have you seen the film "La Haine"? I think this film brings up the point that those who find guns suddenly feel all powerful and would readily put themselves into situations they would not be otherwise.
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Europe, Why don’t we have guns?
I have carried a concealed weapon for years. In Florida if I pull it on someone in a circumstance that is not self defense, I get ten years in prison. If I discharge the weapon, I get twenty years. If I wound the person I get life. If I kill the person, I get death. This tends to limit any ideas I might have for reckless displays of fire arms. I have had two altercations. In neither case did I feel compelled to pull a gun. I was calm and collected because I had no reason to be in fear.
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