Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy use
I just hear from my housemates that tomorrow the government is coming to our house to cut our energy consumption by 20%! No joke.
The energy efficiency team comes to say hello and will do the following things:
1. replace all ordinary lamps with efficient lamps and give us a spare pack
2. install insulative plates at the backside of our chauffages
3. install efficient shower heads
4. install an intelligent switch on our TVs, PCs, and other electric apparels to switch off standby-modes
5. they will perform a check of our central heating installation, our roof insulation and see if there are any water leaks
6. write a dossier indicating where we can further improve
7. inform us about where to get more info
All this supposedly should cut our yearly electricity, gas and water bill by up to 20%. Cool, isn't it? And all this is free (except for the intelligent switch).
Does your country have such a program too? (Belgium here). _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
What is that phrase they use in the US?
"We're from the government and we're here to help". _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
Only govnmt subsidies in the UK to add insulation as far as I’m aware. I’ve not taken it up yet, though I’m considering it. The reason is that my energy bills are so low, my suppliers will be writing me a nice check soon which I’d rather put towards adding PV. Personal experience: living in a 2b-terrace with double-glazing, my gas-fire broke a while back, I’ve not needed it since. An electric heater in winter in one-room has been absolutely fine. However, I know people who have added insulation and the result to energy bills has been dramatic. The intelligent switch sounds so simple, yet the savings I'm sure will be large.
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
Free!!
Give this man a dictionary.
I bet, if you find out what this all being done by government costs, it is at least 25%, maybe 100% more than if done privately.
Where do you think the government got the money to pay for this?
Some taxpayer paid.
It is ironic that Lorenzo, the quintissential socialist, likes to think of things collectively, yet when he is the receipient of government largess, then he ignores the collective and think of it only from his individual position; free to me, ignore the collective cost.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3429 Location: California, USA
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
Here in California USA, similar services are provided by PG&E, the electric utility, which is a corporation owned by the shareholders. Apparently PG&E profits in some way from "negawatts," i.e. reduced ("negative") power consumption, which is/are treated as the equivalent of new generating capacity in the same amount.
That is, saving a kilowatt-hour is the equivalent of generating a kilowatt-hour but costs less to achieve. This works well to squeeze out the waste, though obviously there comes a point where added or changed generating capacity is needed (e.g. switching from NG to wind & uranium and installing PVs on houses).
If the government owns the utility, it makes sense for the government to offer conservation support for the same reason. The issue isn't the cost alone of the conservation support (otherwise the shareholders of private utilities would object strongly), it's the relationship between cost and benefit to the utility.
In the US we have a mix of types of ownership for utilities, most owned by private corporations, some owned by municipal governments. The latter run at a profit to the governments, and so they actually help reduce the tax burden on local taxpayers. The same case occurs where a municipal government owns the telephone system, the cable TV system, and/or the internet system, though there are relatively few of these.
Given that the technical and economic issues are similar, I don't understand why the prickly attitude about "socialism" re. government-owned utilities. It's not like we're talking about government taking over existing private businesses, or getting into other types of products & services that are more obviously competitive in the market. And either way, the costs of generation, transmission, and maintenance are basically the same: one way or another, you still pay the bill.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 64 Location: Little Blighty on the Down
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:29 am Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
gg3 wrote:
That is, saving a kilowatt-hour is the equivalent of generating a kilowatt-hour but costs less to achieve.
We have a similar system here in the UK. It is called the "Balancing Mechanism" and is the trading market for wholesale electricity.
Given that generation and supply must match, the market picks the lowest priced offers (subject to network constraints) that will satisfy the supply requirements.
It is permitted for large energy users to offer a price for consuming less electricity than their contract says. For example, Iceland (a chain of frozen food stores) can switch their freezers off at short notice for a hour or so without the food spoiling. So, they offer "not to consume" - for a price.
If their bid price is cheaper than the marginal price of bringing another generator online, then they "win" the bid and receive large handfuls of cash. There are some steel mills that used to be paid more to stand idle than they ever made from making steel.
Like all markets, it exists only as a set of rules; and the rules were written to achieve certain outcomes. These outcomes do not tend to include small-scale distributed generation or demand reduction.
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
gego wrote:
Free!!
Give this man a dictionary.
I bet, if you find out what this all being done by government costs, it is at least 25%, maybe 100% more than if done privately.
Where do you think the government got the money to pay for this?
Some taxpayer paid.
It is ironic that Lorenzo, the quintissential socialist, likes to think of things collectively, yet when he is the receipient of government largess, then he ignores the collective and think of it only from his individual position; free to me, ignore the collective cost.
What gg3 says: the government owns the utilities, so why is giving less money to the government "socialism"?
The conservation efforts are meant to enhance energy security and to achieve GHG-emission targets to which all EU states are bound by the Kyoto Protocol.
Now you can call the Kyoto Protocol and multilateral action on climate change "socialist", but most of us would call it common sense. Leaving the fight against climate change to the free market would be criminal. So in this case, indeed, gimme all the socialism there is please. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
gego wrote:
Free!!
Give this man a dictionary.
I bet, if you find out what this all being done by government costs, it is at least 25%, maybe 100% more than if done privately.
Where do you think the government got the money to pay for this?
Some taxpayer paid.
It is ironic that Lorenzo, the quintissential socialist, likes to think of things collectively, yet when he is the receipient of government largess, then he ignores the collective and think of it only from his individual position; free to me, ignore the collective cost.
Gego, is you thought that the goverment should have just made the energy survey and related upgrades mandatory and forced people to individually find private companies to do the same work?
If the electorate believes that reducing energy consumption by homeowners across the board is important enough to fund that activity through government direct action, why is that offensive?
In the US, we already force energy reduction measures for new construction through building codes. Low flow showerheads, low flush volume toilets, minimum insulation standards, etc. The building inspectors (public servants...) enforce those standards. I know that firsthand from adding an addition to our home. If we, the people, require those measures for new construction, why can't we require it for existing construction and choose to share the cost as a goverment social program? Democratically.
"Freedom of Consumption" might not exist for long, as the electorate might begin to see the downside.
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
I did all of those things already, out of my own pocket, 10 YEARS AGO.... With the possible exception of insulating my chauffages backside.....
Is that a heater? We pulled out all the central heating because it was too wasteful.
-G _________________ I Have and will continue to vote against ANY politician who supports the various bailouts. Curse you for selling out our future for status quo now!
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
gego wrote:
Free!!
Give this man a dictionary.
I bet, if you find out what this all being done by government costs, it is at least 25%, maybe 100% more than if done privately.
Where do you think the government got the money to pay for this?
Some taxpayer paid.
It is ironic that Lorenzo, the quintissential socialist, likes to think of things collectively, yet when he is the receipient of government largess, then he ignores the collective and think of it only from his individual position; free to me, ignore the collective cost.
this is so silly.
part of capitalisms duty is to attract buyers. the fact that lorenzo hasn't done this on his own is proof enough that capitalism has failed. if it had succeeded, then no gov't actions would be necessary, because lorenzo's house would already have been efficient.
when socialism provides a solution, capitalists whine that they could have done it better. but when capital fails to provide the solution they blame it on the individual consumer. but unfortunately, you can't hypothesize humans to be different creatures when it is convenient.
the theory of the free market is pretty, but pretty doesn't always mean right. it has uses and limitations like anything else.
fundamentalists, whether religious, economic, or political always love their theories more than they love the real world.
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
Take care of yourself as indicated here:
gnm wrote:
I did all of those things already, out of my own pocket, 10 YEARS AGO.... With the possible exception of insulating my chauffages backside.....
Is that a heater? We pulled out all the central heating because it was too wasteful.
-G
Or be dependent on others to take care of you as some of you indicate is your preference, maybe even your need, absent your own ability to do so.
My point was that for the government to take care of you, some people (taxpayers) are going to pay a premium because that is how government works. This does not even bring up the question of your morality in expecting the government to take away from someone thru taxation, wealth that he needs to take care of himself so that you can personally benefit.
I also think you fellows who responded to my input have a problem with separating the what and how of life. If something good to do (conserve energy) is coupled with something that is bad to do, (have government take money from someone else to ineffeciently take care of you) then you cannot seem to separate these two, and you attribute the good of conservation to the government that finally got around to feeding your dependency in that matter. Aflury even goes so far to exhibit his dependency on others by saying that capitalism's duty is to attract buyers; sellers in the market are supposed to take responsibility to see that Lorenzo keeps his house energy effectient. How much more passive can one be?
I can see why you fellows object to freedom and prefer socialism (a slave system), because with it you would not be able to live off of what government plunders and you would be forced to take care of yourselves.
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
Ok, they came by. Very funny situation. One poor neurotic tech-dude frenetically replacing all our lamps, our shower heads, etc...
Two Nepali immigrants standing by to hand the lamps to the dude. The Nepali guys clearly were employed by the state, so the entire scheme is probably a massive attempt to help immigrants have a job.
Funny: "pass me a lamp" - two dudes grabbing one lamp!
For the rest, we don't like the brightness and harsh white of the new lamps - we're going to throw them away, lol. (They're TL-type lamps, proletarian stuff, ugly, hard - we want halogen luxury.)
Anyways, socialism really works. Thank you Mr Government. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Tomorrow the gov't comes to my house to cut my energy us
lorenzo wrote:
Ok, they came by. Very funny situation. One poor neurotic tech-dude frenetically replacing all our lamps, our shower heads, etc...
Two Nepali immigrants standing by to hand the lamps to the dude. The Nepali guys clearly were employed by the state, so the entire scheme is probably a massive attempt to help immigrants have a job.
Funny: "pass me a lamp" - two dudes grabbing one lamp!
For the rest, we don't like the brightness and harsh white of the new lamps - we're going to throw them away, lol. (They're TL-type lamps, proletarian stuff, ugly, hard - we want halogen luxury.)
Anyways, socialism really works. Thank you Mr Government.
Lorenzo, Ever heard this joke.
How many Belgium government workers does it take to change a lightbulb? "Three, one to hold the lightbulb and two to turn the ladder."
You didn't even get what you wanted; you got what the state wanted you to have. And, you, with sarcasm, openly admit that the government employees were ineffecient.
I think the joke is on you. Do you think that you are really getting anything but a screwing? At least guys like Haliburton get a big payoff for supporting the "we take care of you scam", that you support for a pitance. Seems to me that when all that crap was going on at the end of the USSR, Gorbachev was off at his summer villa by the sea instead of living in a two bedroom flat with his mother-in-law like the average Soviet. Your beloved government is doing it to you, those in charge living quite comfortably, and you love the system. The Marque de Sade would love to meet you.
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