Joined: Jan 29, 2005 Posts: 308 Location: Western NY
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Social security
If things remain as they are now( baring a total collapse), then I already don't expect Social Security to be there for my wife and I when we retire. That will happen in 19 years. That is why I am now planning our retirement with my investments, savings and my Tsp(Government workers 401k plan). It sucks paying that SS tax, but nothing I can do about it.
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Social security
alpha480v wrote:
If things remain as they are now( baring a total collapse), then I already don't expect Social Security to be there for my wife and I when we retire. That will happen in 19 years. That is why I am now planning our retirement with my investments, savings and my Tsp(Government workers 401k plan). It sucks paying that SS tax, but nothing I can do about it.
Worst thing about it is this... I think it is likely that they will print their way out of the problem. The result will be that others that get SS will spend the entire check on groceries alone and those that saved money won't be much better off as the savings will be almost worthless as well. I'm saving money also but I don't think that will save me in the end. I've just accepted that I'll work until I'm dead. Really nothing wrong with that except the gov has created an environment where it's pointless to save any money. One way or another they will redistribute it. _________________ -Dac
Winners never quit and quiters never win, but those that never win and never quit are idiots.
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
Good news. You will get every SS dollar you are "entitled" (my least-favorite word) to received. SS has been, and will always be, the political third rail. You will get "your" money, fresh off the printing press. It just won't buy anything.
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
Social Security is not:
1. Insurance
2. Entitlement
3. Bank account
4. Pension plan
The Social Security program is simply a government benefit program with no legal obligations. The government is not legally obligated in any way shape or form to make payments to anyone for any reason. The program can be stopped at any time for any reason. The taxes labeled "Social Security" which are deducted from your paycheck could be labeled anything or nothing at all. Those taxes are all part of the payroll taxes and go the same place. There is no "lock box" or trust fund. There is only the Federal Reserve printing money, congress spending it, and the IRS collecting it.
I'm counting on SS being bankrupt by the time I retire. In other words, I'm saving for my retirement. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
Kingcoal wrote:
Social Security is not:
1. Insurance
2. Entitlement
3. Bank account
4. Pension plan
The Social Security program is simply a government benefit program with no legal obligations. The government is not legally obligated in any way shape or form to make payments to anyone for any reason. The program can be stopped at any time for any reason. The taxes labeled "Social Security" which are deducted from your paycheck could be labeled anything or nothing at all. Those taxes are all part of the payroll taxes and go the same place. There is no "lock box" or trust fund. There is only the Federal Reserve printing money, congress spending it, and the IRS collecting it.
I'm counting on SS being bankrupt by the time I retire. In other words, I'm saving for my retirement.
The prevailing theme of this thread is terminal pessimism. (In fact, of the peak oil forum, for much of the time.) If these problems exist, they can be changed. There is no reason at all that social security could not be all of points #1, #2 and #4 above. But, citizens collectively have to care enough to do something about it. To demand better. To roll over and let the powers that be strip you of a proper accouting of your money and a proper investment of that money is, well, un-American!
I am not trying to take a shot at my American cousins here, but just what has happened that so many of you are so cynical that your "can do" attitude that has been such a characteristic of your nation for so long, has been lost? The world needs the old you, the determined, industrious and intelligent one, not this wimpy new version.
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 715 Location: Western North Carolina
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Social security
Gideon wrote
Quote:
he gov has created an environment where it's pointless to save any money
DING!!!
You hit the nail right on the head there. Savings accounts don't return higher than inflation, the stock market, on average, returns less than inflation. Real estate? That's over with for the most part.
Realization of that fact was truly depressing. Retirement? What retirement? We will work will we cant, unless we're members of the top 2% or so.
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
I want to point out that Social Security is a government plan. It is typical of the failure of government to do anything but shear the sheep, just as the venture into Iraq is a failure by any standard other than making a few friends of the government more wealthy.
And some of you boys seem to be chomping at the bit for government to solve the energy problem? What makes you think that government taking over energy will be any different than government Social Security or Iraq?
Have you read the October, 2006 Consumer Report magazine about the government led ethanol charge; another failed government plan to stack on top of everything else that government screws up. It is a wonder that governments sometimes win wars, but then the competition is another government, so I guess it boils down to who makes the least number of blunders.
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
My vibe on SS is that even if all it was were welfare for old people, it wouldn't bother me so much. Sure I like capitalism, but a safety net is ok.
The real problem is that it is not even that. There is no money there. It's all been spent on god knows what, and empty promises keep getting made.
So what SS actually is, is a huge extra tax with no accounting attached. The fact that they tell me sweet little lies about retirement income while they bend me over really doesn't provide the kind of lube I would like for this activity.
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
mgibbons19 wrote:
My vibe on SS is that even if all it was were welfare for old people, it wouldn't bother me so much. Sure I like capitalism, but a safety net is ok.
The weakness for safety was the hook attached to the worm. The illusion of a safety net kept people hooked, and willing to pay more and more in FICA tax over the years, and now everyone is finding out that there is in fact a net involved, but it is no safety net; picture a shrimp net instead.
I don't think you are in a position to complain since, by your statement, you approve of the idea of government taking from one to give to another; sort of a "live by the sword, die by the sword" concept comes to mind.
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
gego wrote:
I don't think you are in a position to complain since, by your statement, you approve of the idea of government taking from one to give to another; sort of a "live by the sword, die by the sword" concept comes to mind.
Don't give me that. My point is they're lying. If it was capitalism, fair enough. If it were what they say it is, that might be ok too.
But it's not. So for us Xers, it means we pay 50% more (socialistic) Xtra taxes our whole lives while trying to invest (capitalistic) to prepare for a retirement we know will be self-funded.
So yeah, keep your live by the sword s**t to yourself.
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
mgibbons19 wrote:
Don't give me that. My point is they're lying. If it was capitalism, fair enough. If it were what they say it is, that might be ok too.
But it's not. So for us Xers, it means we pay 50% more (socialistic) Xtra taxes our whole lives while trying to invest (capitalistic) to prepare for a retirement we know will be self funded.
So yeah, keep your live by the sword s**t to yourself.
I was pointing out your hypocracy. You say you like capitalism, yet you like this government owned, government controlled benefit system, socialism as a safety net.
I think you need a dictionary to begin with. It is fellows like you who are responsible for the give away of the free market in favor of being taken care of by big brother, so my comment about your inconsistent thinking stands.
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
Good, thanks. I wouldn't have figured out the paradox out on my own. I'll get right on the dictionary thing too. Say you wouldn't have reference for that big brother idea would you? Guidance from our elders is so useful.
I am so ashamed that I have singlehandedly brought down freedom in my homeland, for want of a dictionary.
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
Gideon wrote:
Duke, what the hay are you talking about?
I said that SS will eventually become an entirely welfare based system.
You respond "no" and then proceed to tell me how SS and SSI are currently set up?
That makes no sense.
It's like me saying the temp of the globe will be higher in 100 years and you arguing back that the temp is not higher now, so I'm wrong.
This is my point - I DON'T CARE what the system is NOW.
My prediction is that the current system will be changed so that everybody pays in, kind of like now, but you don't get to pull back out if you have "too much" money.
So the "poor" and the "non-rich" get to pull out money when they're 70, but not the rich. That makes it wealth redistribution and welfare in its (almost) purest form.
That's my point. Your neighbor gets to live like a slob, save no money, etcetera, but if he meets the minimum requirements for having worked 10 years, or whatever, he gets your money when he's 70 and broke.
No, what I am saying is that the rich barely pay into SS as it is. I don’t know the exact amount where SS taxes top out, but it is right around $100k. This mean that someone who earns $1,000,000 a year only pays SS taxes on 10% of their income, while those that make less than $100,000 pay SS taxes on 100% of their income.
Also, I am saying that SS taxes are in reality a highly regressive, where the less income you have the more you pay, tax that has little to do with the SS check grandma gets. These funds are basically stolen by the federal government and used in the general fund to help mask the actual deficits the feds are running.
Also, you seem to think that folk can live the high life on their SS check. The average payout for a SS check is right around $1300 a month. That means that more than half the folks on SS receive a check for less than $1300. And for many it is much less. These isn’t much high living to be had on $1300 a month.
I will also point out once again that unless you work at least 10 years you cannot get SS. And if you only work 10 years your benefit will be less than $800 a month. Let the high life begin.
I guess my main point is, yes many of the folk out there who are younger than I am will probably not collect SS. But don’t blame the poor folk who live from SS check to SS check. Blame the politicians who have been stealing from the “SS Trust Fund” from the beginning. Your falling for a common tactic of the rich. Tax the working folk to the point of breaking, and then turn around and blame the poor.
This is how I would go about fixing SS:
1. Stop collecting to much in taxes. Instead of collecting these huge sums for the “SS Trust Fund” that the pols just rip off, the SS admin each year will estimate how much in benefits will be paid out, and will then set the SS tax rate to collect as close to this amount as possible. In years where to much money is collected the next years rates would fall. In years where to little money was collected the next years rates would rise to cover the shortage.
2. Uncap the limit on SS earnings. As I mentioned earlier, folks stop paying SS taxes on earnings above a certain level (about $100K). This would bring billions of new dollars into the SS system. This change alone would make the SS system solvent into the 2080’s.
3. Make More “Unearned Income” Eligible for SS Taxes. I have a friend who owns 3 topless bars. These bars are all subchapter S corps. My friend works 6 days a week running these bars, but since the bars are all corporations he takes the income as Capital Gains and does not pay a penny of SS taxes on this ’Unearned Income’. And this goes on in business after business. Using this simple accounting trick to change ’Earned Income’ (subject to SS taxes) to ’Unearned Income’ (not subject to SS taxes) costs SS billions every year.
4. Means Test. The least importent of the changes I would make. But no, I don’t think Bill Gates or any of the Walton clan should be collecting SS checks. If we say that no one having an earned or unearned income above $2.5 million would do the trick and keep 98% of the population eligible for benefits.
Folks, the SS system is a mess. But it’s not a mess due to the recipients. It is a mess because the wealthy (folk making millions) in this country hate paying their fair share in taxes. Let the flaming begin.
Duke of Indiana
BTW, the above is all based on the assumption that the US and world economy don’t have a major meltdown anytime soon. However, my own personal belief is you had better be learning how to grow tomatoes and how to pluck a chicken, because the ultra wealthy have screwed us all. _________________ I'd rather get my brains blown out in the wild than wait in terror at the slaughterhouse.
Craig Volk, Northern Exposure, A-Hunting We Will Go, 1991
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4428 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
Well, if you eliminate the cap on SS taxes, you can cut that tax rate substantially.
I'm all for it, personally.
It would amount to a major middle/lower class tax cut without cutting services to anyone. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4428 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Social security
Social Security prevents lonely old people from dying off from utter and abject poverty. Is that really such a waste of tax money? Do you really want your grandparents to be eating catfood?
But Social Security is NOT a budget problem. And it NEVER will be.
Real inflation is starting to race away from the offical COLA numbers.
Government revenue is going to surge in coming years as all of these new dollars find their way into the Department of Treasury. At the same time, payouts to Social Security are going to increase but not nearly at the same rate. Take a look at the impact a 1% gap between real inflation and COLA does to the budget, it's incredible. We get another decade for every 1% gap.
And how many actually believe inflation is hovering around 2%?
Especially when you consider what old people spend their SS checks on.
Don't worry about the fiscal sustainability of Social Security.
Want something to worry about? Medicare... _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
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