Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Oct 25, 2004 Posts: 378 Location: Southern California Desert
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:23 pm Post subject: diesel fuel from pine and maple trees
Instead of cutting down trees, we could extract their oils.
We've seen how quick oil-filled pines burn in a forest fire.
To me, this could be one of the potential, if not final, replacements for fuel.
Uh--do we know yet whether pine and maple trees can survive global warming and climate change anywhere? And just how long does it take for them to grow? And what runs the machines that extract the oil from them, and process it? And what uses do/don't these oils have in a post-crash world?
I wish we could all say "EUREKA!" to alternative energy solutions without asking all these questions...but we can't. There's NEVER been a material so flexible, so useable, as oil. Even if we combine several renewable energy source solutions, we will not have the same level of industrialized society that we do now. (Not that there's anything WRONG with that!) Are you speaking from a "this will keep business-as-usual" train of thought, or a "there can still be SOME power in a post-peak world" one? The former is impossible, perhaps even suicidal; the latter, most of us peakers accept and wish we could be moving more toward this while there is still some oil and gas left....
Joined: Oct 25, 2004 Posts: 378 Location: Southern California Desert
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:04 am Post subject:
Well, isn't that the truth.
The first diesels were made to burn plant oils, yet since there was plenty of the black stuff in the ground, we could just use that.
Whoever was the first one responsible for that train of thought is worse than Hitler. Their descendants should be put on display for public humiliation purposes. But, as for the pine oil, the way I could work it is by buying a bunch of land where there are already pine trees. And therefore, using my timely yields for myself and whoever needs it the most.
Everyone else who was too ignorant to prep themselves could be used in a massive, "bio-power" project.
Kind of like the towers from the Matrix.
Except this would be voluntary as a job, and mandatory punishment for criminals.
And as far as all the plastic material required to pull off that feat, there is plastic recycling. And all IV fluid is, is just a form of syrup.
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 434 Location: Berkeley CA
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:19 am Post subject:
I think its better to just use the resin from the pine as a glue or some something of that nature. Ever notice during the summer you see all this resin drip off of the pine tree onto the sidewalk, and hardens into a nice solid mass
.Well maple tree can be useful, in post peak global trade will fall apart, mainly because fuel is too expensive to drive ships. About 70% of the sugar comes from sugar cane which grows in the tropical regions, as least here in the U.S we can still use maple trees as a source of sugar. _________________ my page:
www.myspace.com/peakoil
Joined: Oct 25, 2004 Posts: 378 Location: Southern California Desert
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:55 am Post subject:
Well, aside from the fuel I collect from crushing the pine needles on my trees, I could also use that fuel to run trainloads of syrup and glue solutions to the post-peak consumers.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3429 Location: California, USA
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:09 am Post subject:
This is one of those questions that needs to be dealt with empirically.
Someone needs to do the experiment: get the pine trees, extract the oil, see if it has any value as a fuel, and calculate the EROEI.
Ideal case is that the scrap wood from existing pine harvests can be used. I don't think we can grow pines or maples fast enough to use them as a primary energy source, though that's not an excuse for wasting the scrapwood that could otherwise be used.
And then comes the question, why not just burn the scrapwood itself (suitably ground up) in high-temp burners with cat converters to minimize particulate exhausts...? Micro-generators installed at wood products plants, to produce electricity for use in the plants, and sell surplus to the grid as is done with cogeneration projects currently.
Joined: Oct 25, 2004 Posts: 378 Location: Southern California Desert
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:49 am Post subject:
Yeah. What with all the new housing always going up, wood tends to get chopped up by the acres.
You're idea is good nonetheless, we just have to find a way to make trees grow and faster.
I remember bringing up the idea of pumping up trees with some form of natural steroids. I suggested this to a group of people who at first seemed energy conservative. But, turned out to be Bushie-boy, religious zealot, I-believe-in-Genesis, conservatives.
As far as all these prissy, not-worth-the-money they're being sold for, homes are going, they should just quit while they're ahead.
Instead, refurbished RV's and fifth wheel trailers could be linked together to make excellent housing. Military command tents are also good.
But, all this wood to make some tract housing project with?!?!
Someone needs to be swung from the Hoover Dam by the balls!!
It ends up in pellet stoves for heat, incinerators as mentioned above, paper, cardbord boxes etc.
If we cut down pine and replaced it w/ various decidious trees, nut bearing ones for forrest animals, that might improve the ecology of the wilderness....but i have to agree, it takes too long to grow, and it is too tedious to harvest (which is labor/energy intensive in itself).
Maple syrup will not likely be a full scale replacement for raw cane suger, simply because it takes so many trees to get so little syrup... (BTW try a "grade B" it is tastier).
I don't think all suger trade will disapear, even the Romans hade a trade in date honey (suger) and other spices. _________________ With Love to all, and Malice to none.
"A people is conquered not when they lose a war, but when they adopt the song and customs of the enemy"
-Chacham S
Pine trees (and some other species) are rich in terpenes and terpenoids. However, they are too volatile to obtain from tapping. Open tapping (like rubber) allows the rosin (mainly isomers of abietic acid) to be collected, but the volatiles will be gone in a short time. Closed tapping (like for maple sap) won't work, as the rosin clogs the taps and pipes.
Terpenes, such as alpha-pinene from pines, are best obtained from distilling freshly chipped wood within a day or two of felling. They could certainly be used as fuel but a) they are terrible VOCs (this is why pine or eucalyptus forests viewed from a few kilometres away always appear to have a blue haze over them, cf. Blue Mountains) b) they are difficult to burn cleanly (they have three benzene rings in their molecular structure, so are carbon-rich) and c) the energy required to log, transport and distill them must, by far, exceed the energy obtainable by burning them. Possibly the easiest terpene to distill is d-limonene, as it comes from the orange peel left over from juicing factories, so is a useful resource of waste matter. However, I don't believe it is practical. The first time you smell it, you think mmmm!, that smells really nice! The second time, well, it's not bad! The third time, you're not so keen. The fourth time, you find the smell clings to everything around you. By the tenth time, you are probably vomiting, or nearly so, not because it's particularly toxic but because it's sickeningly sweet. It is a good solvent. I had an employee who cleaned a melamine bench-top with d-limonene once, then copiously rinsed it with detergent and water. The room still smelt of oranges six months later, despite numerous washes and cleanings of the bench with other solvents. d-Limonene is used in minute quantities for orange flavouring and as an odour-additive (0.01%) in some detergents. More or less neat (mixed with surfactants) it is used to remove rosin flux residues from electronics assemblies, then thoroughly water-washed, although its popularity has dropped because of the difficulty of odour containment. It is officially classed as a VOC in all countries.
Maples are not rich in terpenes, but their sap does contain sugars. These could be fermented and distilled into 96% ethanol which could be used as an additive to petrol (gasoline). However, economically, it would not be as interesting as sucrose from either sugar cane or sugar beet. Even so, distilling the ferment is very energy-intensive and the EROEI is very low (1 to 3).
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4897 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:06 am Post subject:
No easy fix...pine would better be used for heating homes. I know the best pellets for the pellet stove are pine (what type??). Pine burns hot, and its one reason not to use it in a wood burning stove.
I've had this thought that we could harvest areas of the west that are in great danger of forest fire. This could give us a source of fuel for home use and stop the spread of large fires. I do realize that fires are natural and replenish the earth, but nothing in life is free.
Someone, somewhere on here made a comment of tractors that burned wood. Maybe these will make a comeback down the road?
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
d-Limonene is used in minute quantities for orange flavouring and as an odour-additive (0.01%) in some detergents. More or less neat (mixed with surfactants) it is used to remove rosin flux residues from electronics assemblies, then thoroughly water-washed, although its popularity has dropped because of the difficulty of odour containment. It is officially classed as a VOC in all countries.
