Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Do you think meat consumption reduction could save oil and delay peak oil problems?
Yes, I'm a vegan and if everyone was, the world would be a more peaceful place.
17%
[ 14 ]
Yes, but I eat meat. It doesn't matter what I do. It's what everyone does that matters.
7%
[ 6 ]
No, Jevon's Paradox still applies.
11%
[ 9 ]
No, there are other ways to reduce oil consumption than to deny people an essential food group.
17%
[ 14 ]
No, I deny the facts presented in this post.
6%
[ 5 ]
Yes, but the MEAT lobby will never let that happen.
8%
[ 7 ]
No, it's too late to implement anything to stave off any peak oil effects.
7%
[ 6 ]
No, it is a cultural possibility for people to stop eating something that has been the centerpiece of their meals.
2%
[ 2 ]
No, meat will get more expensive as oil gets more expensive and the market will handle it.
22%
[ 18 ]
Total Votes : 81
Author
Message
EnergySpin Fission
Joined: Jun 25, 2005 Posts: 2381
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
manu wrote:
Maybe you should go to a slaughterhouse and see how horrible it is. You could go see Fast Food Nation and see the exploitation of animals and also people. Or read the Jungle by ?, about the slaughterhouses at the turn of the century and how the Polish immigrants were exploited in Chicago. Cow killing is really bad karma. Save yourself and give up eating cow.
I was wondering .. how would Hindu's react to the in vitro steaks?
Like the ones generated by stem cell technology?
This is not a Science fiction thing .. meat has been grown in vitro already:
http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/artificial_meat_grown.html
This will give the vegans vs non-vegans argument a new twist _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
Ludi wrote:
Chickens are very cuddly, but I still eat them.
My experience from my grandparent's farm is that they are very cute when you chop their head at exactly the right level and then you let then run around .
Increases the cuddliness by a factor of 10 ...
Oh well back to eating my lentil soup! _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
pstarr wrote:
threadbear wrote:
Jewish author Isaac Bashevis Singer, who received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1978 and who was himself a vegetarian wrote in The Letter Writer: "In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka."
Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian? This is the kind of irony that hurts my head
Joined: Jan 29, 2006 Posts: 309 Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
[quote="manu"]MayOr read the Jungle by ?, about the slaughterhouses at the turn of the century and how the Polish immigrants were exploited in Chicago.quote]
Upton Sinclair was the author of "The Jungle".
http://www.answers.com/topic/upton-sinclair _________________ Jim Gagnepain
Make a BOLD statement while using Alternative Transportation
http://www.oilfreeandhappy.com
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
BrownDog wrote:
pstarr wrote:
Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian? This is the kind of irony that hurts my head
No, he was not.
according to wikipedia not only was Hitler a vegetarian but he was also a "dedicated non-smoker and promoted aggressive anti-smoking campaigns". The guy just couldn’t mind his own business. Always sticking his nose and firing squads into places they weren't appreciated.
manu wrote:
Maybe you should go to a slaughterhouse and see how horrible it is. You could go see Fast Food Nation and see the exploitation of animals and also people. Or read the Jungle by ?, about the slaughterhouses at the turn of the century and how the Polish immigrants were exploited in Chicago. Cow killing is really bad karma. Save yourself and give up eating cow.
”Bad” cow killing is bad karma. I have been involved in “good” cow killing. My best friend owned three Scottish Long Horn cattle, heirloom animals. They grazed 4 acres and also were supplemented with left-over vegetables from the natural food store. They had a good life.
A guy came out with a portable slaughterhouse and killed the two adults in their own pasture just a few feet from each other and us. He shot the cows between the eyes slowly and methodically taking very careful aim to kill instantly. There was no discomfort or pain, they just dropped in their tracks. And there was no panic. The remaining young male continued to graze a foot from the others lying dead.
I know this is not the normal case and that industrial slaughterhouses are nightmares. But it does not have to be like that. The American consumer has chosen greed and toys over responsibility, pride, and compassion. We pay the poor of the world to do our dirty work. We create policies to insure a constant supply of poor to work for us. We then hide from that reality and are surprised when that reality turns ugly because it is hidden from view. We pay cheap and cruel. Just as our slaughterhouses could be humane and ecological, so could the rest of our dealing with the world. But we have chosen to hide ourselves away in the suburban dreamland and ignore what other (with no scruples, compassion, or rules or regulations) do in our name.
You think slaughterhouses are bad? Check out what industrial timbering and mining does to habitat-and that includes bird nests, baby birds, living salmon, endangered species, etc. Next time you play you ipod consider the rape and plunder that produced it.
The only way we will ever respect the planet and its living things is to live among and understand them. But this is all but impossible in the world we've created. We have built suburban ghettos for ourselves instead of balanced, integrated, communities. So we will continue to destroy what is beautiful. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
It's true, pstarr. Humane killing does not distress other animals who observe it. My chickens have observed their fellows being killed and apparently not experienced any negative opinion, though it is hard to tell. There was no apparent distress. But our commercial commodification of animals does not allow for individual care of the animals through life and death. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
Ludi wrote:
It's true, pstarr. Humane killing does not distress other animals who observe it. My chickens have observed their fellows being killed and apparently not experienced any negative opinion, though it is hard to tell. There was no apparent distress. But our commercial commodification of animals does not allow for individual care of the animals through life and death.
Have you heard the expression "chickenhead" Ludi?
May explain why your chickens did not express any "negative opinions"
But I propose an easily done experiment ... kill a couple od day-old chicks in front of their mothen hen utilizing both an "inhumane" and a "humane" manner. Observe the hen for negative opinions ... repeat till you have an adequate sample and post the results of your analysis. Additionally wait till the chicks are adult chicken and do the same in front of their mother.
I can help you with the statistical part to make this a rather rigorous study.
Although I suspect that this particular experiment will disprove your general thesis, it might very well be true that once the chicks are adults their mother does not even care ... after all she is a chickenhead! _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
zoidberg wrote:
threadbear wrote:
zoidberg wrote:
Since when did we become so disassociated with the rest of life on earth that eating meat is somehow distasteful? We're designed to have some meat in our diet, and life eats other life on Earth. Its ok, morally, to eat animals, and to raise them so we can harvest their flesh. I personally wouldn't want to work in a slaughterhouse, but I dont think we shouldn't have them.
Maybe that strikes you as callous, and it is I suppose, but welcome to reality baby!
Top of the food chain! BOOYAH!
It wasn't that long ago those damned sabre tooth tigers were eating our babies. If you ask me vegans and their dietary brothers suffer from a sort of human exceptionalism that would disappear pretty quickly when food got short, and hunger compels you to kill that chicken with your bare hands and cook it.
Jewish author Isaac Bashevis Singer, who received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1978 and who was himself a vegetarian wrote in The Letter Writer: "In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka."
Did the Nazis eat the Jews too? I'm not advocating unnecessary cruelty to the animals.
For instance growing up on a farm we raised a very modest amount of cattle. Most were for sale of course, but we did eat some. I feel we raised them in a very kind manner, with freedom to graze, shelter and guaranteed fresh water, as well as protection from other predators(except ourselves of course). This is an honorable way of life and in no way makes me comparable to a Nazi.
I was particularly reacting to your comment about "not wanting to work in a slaughter house, but that we should have them". That's like saying I know the conditions are utterly inhumane in a prison, but as long as I don't have to work there...what I don't see, won't hurt me.
I know consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, but this little mind doesn't want to eat it if I don't know how it lived or died.
Cheers to you for your own farm experience. I have no problem with that, just the agribusiness, feed lot, meatpacking industry. Bleech.
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
threadbear wrote:
I was particularly reacting to your comment about "not wanting to work in a slaughter house, but that we should have them". That's like saying I know the conditions are utterly inhumane in a prison, but as long as I don't have to work there...what I don't see, won't hurt me.
that's the point I was making. I've eaten organic for many years not because of health concerns but because I don't want to subject field workers, birds and animals to biocides. I am an atheist and I believe in morality outside religion. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Feb 23, 2005 Posts: 513 Location: Winnipeg
Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
pstarr wrote:
threadbear wrote:
I was particularly reacting to your comment about "not wanting to work in a slaughter house, but that we should have them". That's like saying I know the conditions are utterly inhumane in a prison, but as long as I don't have to work there...what I don't see, won't hurt me.
that's the point I was making. I've eaten organic for many years not because of health concerns but because I don't want to subject field workers, birds and animals to biocides. I am an atheist and I believe in morality outside religion.
I don't think slaughterhouses are run to be cruel, but cruelty comes from the nature of the business. I am annoyed though when someone says eating meat is like being a Nazi. It just isn't and the reason it isnt is because the slaughterhouse isn't designed to be cruel, its a side effect. Intent does count for something. As for not wanting to work there, its not because I don't want to think about or know how my food is prepared, its because I'm a big ol' softy and just don't have the killer instinct to kill big mostly gentle animals one after the other. I will sanction their use by consuming their products though. I am not immune to the suffering of my fellow mammals though and would volunteer to pay a surcharge for ethical treatment of food animals. My grocery store doesn't really have an organic meat department though, so until then...
PS. It would be nice to have some arguments without Nazi analogies coming up.
Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
My arguement against cow killing is that when there are no more tractors to till the land, the bull does that job. The cow gives its milk, and combined with grains, fruits and vegatables one can live a healthy life. So post peak oil, people will begin to see their value. When the cow and bull die naturally, one can use their skin for shoes, ect. and eat the meat. If you do eat meat such as deer, pig, or fish, you should go and kill the animals yourself. In this way you can see that you are taking a life. Meat is tamasic, or mode of ignorance in nature so if you want to remain in ignorance then keep killing and eating animals.
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!
manu wrote:
My arguement against cow killing is that when there are no more tractors to till the land, the bull does that job. The cow gives its milk, and combined with grains, fruits and vegatables one can live a healthy life. So post peak oil, people will begin to see their value. When the cow and bull die naturally, one can use their skin for shoes, ect. and eat the meat. If you do eat meat such as deer, pig, or fish, you should go and kill the animals yourself. In this way you can see that you are taking a life. Meat is tamasic, or mode of ignorance in nature so if you want to remain in ignorance then keep killing and eating animals.
Just out of curiousity, are you lacto-vegetarian or vegan? The dairy industry is responsible for killing large amounts of animals as well. Veal exists because dairy products exist.
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: Energy & Meat
When oil becomes so expensive that most people can't afford to use it to heat their homes,many people are going to turn to wood to keep their houses warm.
The problem is that in alot of place,there are not alot of trees left for people to cut down and once all the trees have gone,people will have to do without heating or just start burning books or furniture,but eventually that will run out.
The reason i'm saying this is that without fire there is going to be no way for people to cook meat(i'm assuming here that the electrical grid has collapsed and gas is also very expensive). Without anyway to cook the meat this will mean that keeping animals for meat is completly pointless. Once people get rid of the animals, they will use the land to grow things like vegatables and fruit and anything that they can eat raw.
For those of you who do not know, growing crops is a much more efficient use of land,water and energy. so with all the animals gone this means we will be able to produce more food and more people will survive.(providing they live in a temperate climate,like the UK,and don't need heating).
This is the reason why i think that peak oil is a good thing(no more animal murder). _________________ what did YOU do in the eco-war?
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2123 Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Energy & Meat
You do realize that the bulk of daily calories that most people consume comes from grains and that grains require cooking? Right? _________________ “Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 826 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: Energy & Meat
Oh Darn you Turtle! You keep bringing up reality. How's a vegan to argue with that?
Sorry Sirrom, animals in the pre oil times were uses as beasts of burden, transport, conversion of non arable land to food, and it will be that way in the future also.
PS meats a lot easier to cook than grains
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back to eating my lentil soup!
ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
