Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5719 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
The idea that nature is our enemy and seperate from us is at the root of the disease that is our civilization. The fear and hatred of nature that most people express is heartbreaking to me. I can't even begin to understand the profundity of the loss of that connection with nature and each other, because I was raised within our civilization (as were all my recent ancestors). It maddens me that I can't teach my son to have that connection because I've never felt it myself and probably never will. I stand wholeheartedly with Ludi and Heineken on this issue. Though it angers and frustrates me that most people consider it naive and romantic, I know they are wrong. Peak oil was the catalyst that initiated a chain of strange events which eventually led me to this point of view. The overwhelming majority of people will fight to the death to defend the civilization that imprisons and poisons them (and every other living thing on this planet) because it is their self identity and they are afraid of death. I'm afraid of death too, and terrified of the collapse of civilization in spite of my awareness of how toxic and evil (yes, I said it) it is. But my self identity is not as important as the continuation of this miraculous, complex web of life on this planet, which is going to die if this insanity doesn't stop in short order. It may already be terminal (I doubt that, though). Because I am spending the majority of my energy parenting (the most important job in the world, despite the lip service with which it's treated), about all I can do is watch and wait.
_________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
This abnormal warmth is sure messing us up. We got a tiny bit of snow and it got cold, for 3 or 4 days. Now it's warming up again, and the big snowstorm we were supposed to have may be rain. We are trying to finish up our logging, and need to have frozen ground. It may not happen until the middle of January this year. Then we'll have to finish up by the first of March. What is going on? Our culture's insatiable desire to keep burning fossil fuels is what is causing this mess. We are going to cut a bunch of firewood (and sawlogs), if we can get in there. Hopefully this will be the last year and we've thinned out our woodlot for maple syrup production (which has suffered from global warming as well) We had the Catholic priest bless our operation about three years ago, and maybe it's time to do that again. I'm not that religious, but just in case...
About the hunter-gatherer culture, I've lived in one. Swan's Island is mostly populated by lobstermen. They earn their living from the vagarities of the sea. They do think differently. Their religion is really serious, because they don't just derive their substenance from petroleum. God really matters. It's a different world.
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 6786 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Revi wrote:
...About the hunter-gatherer culture, I've lived in one. Swan's Island is mostly populated by lobstermen. They earn their living from the vagarities of the sea. They do think differently. Their religion is really serious, because they don't just derive their substenance from petroleum. God really matters. It's a different world.
It's a world we naked apes worked very hard to escape from. If it was as idyllic as some seem to think, would we have abandoned it as completely as we have? I'd say we switched to the agrarian model out of sheer necessity. We saw how much more dependable the food supply was for farmers than for hunter-gatherers, and saw the choice as a no-brainer.
Sure, we've made a mess of things because of that decision, but the point is, we gave up on the old ways for some very good reasons. Keep something in mind, HG fans: Neanderthals made the HG way of life work for them for something like 150,000 years. Then a bunch of farmers migrated into their regions, and you know what happened. _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Zardoz wrote:
I'd say we switched to the agrarian model out of sheer necessity. We saw how much more dependable the food supply was for farmers than for hunter-gatherers, and saw the choice as a no-brainer.
There are many theories as to why humans started farming from drought to population pressure. Personally, I think that a few groups of people switched to 'gathering' abundant seeded grasses in addition to their hunting after the last ice age finished and found they could stay in one place by doing so. Then they started planting as well as hunting until eventually they had to farm full time and intensively because their populations grew and eventually that wasn't enough and their people and the tradition of farming spread as the people migrated outwards in search of new land to farm.
Some people say that agriculture is less dependable than hunting and gathering as all it takes is rain too late or too early to wipe out a entire people's crop and then famine hits hard. Whereas hunters and gatherers can alway scrap together something.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5719 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Switching to agriculture allowed the accumulation of wealth and power on a large scale. It all followed from that. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Joined: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 1257 Location: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
From anthropoligical research I've been doing lately. I've come to the (tentative) conclusion that humans evolved with a very low tolerance to population pressure. Humans can only sanely deal with a few dozen other humans in their milieu in a lifetime. H/G's possessed a social awareness that may have been telepathic. Cooperation was EVERYTHING. Once we became overpopulated. the General Adaptation Syndrome set in; reducing us to snarling. backstabbing, psychotic monkeys.
"White man smart but not wise." ISHI (and ISHI would have known, right?)
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 6786 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Ludi wrote:
Not aware that the vast MAJORITY of human cultures were not agrarian?
At what point in time? How far back are you going? Go back far enough and nobody was agrarian.
Quote:
Not aware civilization was pushed on non-civilized people by horrendous violence?
Hunter-gatherers adopted agriculture only when forced to by invaders? Nobody developed it on their own? Are you saying that giving up the hunter-gatherer way was always involuntary? _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
The fact that a system is widely adopted does not mean that the system is healthy, certainly not in the long term. It may just be addictive.
When an individual adopts an unhealthy lifestyle, say addiction to cocaine (or pick any other you please), we recognize that, even if they say their life is better, it is really making them sick--physically and spiritually--in the short run, and dead in the long run.
Agriculture (and later Industrialism) is basically the same thing, but it takes a bit longer. Just because it was widely adopted does not mean it was healthy--for humans or the planet. But we're seeing the ultimate results now--massive extinctions of life forms and impending catastrophe for all.
This is not to say force and other coercive measures weren't sometimes applied to get a new population "hooked."
Quinn's "Ishmael" is a good introduction to the idea.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Shannymara wrote:
The idea that nature is our enemy and separate from us is at the root of the disease that is our civilization. The fear and hatred of nature that most people express is heartbreaking to me. I can't even begin to understand the profundity of the loss of that connection with nature and each other, because I was raised within our civilization (as were all my recent ancestors). It maddens me that I can't teach my son to have that connection because I've never felt it myself and probably never will. . . . Though it angers and frustrates me that most people consider it naive and romantic, I know they are wrong. Peak oil was the catalyst that initiated a chain of strange events which eventually led me to this point of view. The overwhelming majority of people will fight to the death to defend the civilization that imprisons and poisons them (and every other living thing on this planet) because it is their self identity and they are afraid of death. I'm afraid of death too, and terrified of the collapse of civilization in spite of my awareness of how toxic and evil . . . it is. But my self identity is not as important as the continuation of this miraculous, complex web of life on this planet, which is going to die if this insanity doesn't stop in short order. . . .
Nicely expressed, Shanny. Frustration straight from the heart. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Zardoz wrote:
Are you saying that giving up the hunter-gatherer way was always involuntary?
Who knows? Who cares? The point is that it was our first big mistake in a chain of mistakes that are now taking out the biosphere. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Flash! Colder weather is definitely coming to the East. But it's just a spate of more typical January weather, still trending a tad above average at least here in the Mid-Atlantic. Even if it stays cold (unlikely!), this winter is a globally warmed bust. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Heineken wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
Are you saying that giving up the hunter-gatherer way was always involuntary?
Who knows? Who cares? The point is that it was our first big mistake in a chain of mistakes that are now taking out this planet.
In the beginning, giving up hunting and gathering looks like a good deal. It's less work. You can build a durable settlement. You get food stockpiles, and your population grows. In the beginning, it all looks good, and feels good, and you keep doing it.
Even though, arguably, the first "civilized" peoples in the Fertile Crescent gave up quality for quantity in their food and perhaps also their lifestyle, it was an easier, more predictable, and generally longer life.
Easier, more predictable, longer lives? Sounds like a great deal. And like Heineken points out, part of what led us to the problems we face now.
In other news, there's a cold snap now, but like someone else mentioned, forecast temps are still ten degrees higher than average. _________________ "We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
So many things that look like a good deal at first end in ruin. Naziism for Germany. That first drink for a potential alcoholic. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: Abnormal warmth as far out as they can see . . .
Quote:
Who knows? Who cares? The point is that it was our first big mistake in a chain of mistakes that are now taking out this planet.
Right.....and I suppose that man would have quit fornicating for fun and realized that if he had more than 2 children the chances were very high that there just wouldn't be enough wildebeast or water buffalo around to kill"? I don't think so. The fact we became industrial probably saved a number of animal species which otherwise would have been hunted to extinction.
And becoming industrial did not make us "consuming idiots". I grew up in the fifties and sixties....as far as I can remember everyone was quite happy to have a small house that allowed for a cozy family, 1 car that was generally at least 5 years old and well maintained and a few changes of clothing...mostly all the same stuff. I'm not sure when the consumer society got really rolling nor what triggered it, but it was hardly the industial age. Personally I blame advertisers and the media that give them justification for existence. Man after all is easily tempted (see Bible, chapter Genesis).
We are where we are right now because of choices....bad choices. Everyone wanted more, more than they could afford, more than they needed and definitely more than the planet would support over the long term. This had nothing to do with evolution or wars but perhaps a bit with greed.
I often think about what I need to be happy...a warm place to stay, a couple of fly rods, a durable pair of cross country skiis, the occasional bottle of single malt and the good health to enjoy all of the previous. Although very well off I really don't believe I am any happier than when I was a child when having "things" just meant you needed to store them somewhere and look after them.
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