Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
smallpoxgirl wrote:
The question is of whose freedom is pre-eminent. Should local people have the right to control the flavor of communities and their local commerce or should distant corporations have a right to impose their procrustean ideas of commerce, craft the whole world in their image, and convert it into a giant conveyer of cash going into a perpetually shrinking collection of pockets. Living in a world where everywhere looks like everywhere else and all the commerce is controlled by a few dozen CEO's thousands of miles away who suck up all the profits does not strike me as being freedom.
Yes, I agree with your points, SPG, and I think these issues are at the heart of caver456's original post. The point is that keeping smaller businesses healthy in a community keeps more of the money earned in that community. If I purchase my hardware at a smaller, independently owned store, and my coffee at a locally owned cafe, those businesses remain thriving and can, in turn, bring their families to my restaurant for dinner, or can afford donations to a local charity.
Another consideration is how beneficial it can be to a smaller center to revitalize the "downtown" area or existing space in a mall with local businesses instead of developing huge new areas with big box stores. The big stores are essentially an outgrowth of suburbia and are as big a waste of resources.
Consider also that small businesses, when alive and healthy, can be a steady source of employment for generations of people. Has anyone noticed that the Home Depots and other large stores are currently introducing cashier-less checkouts? How long will it be before most of these jobs are replaced in this manner? It's all about the profits.
It's my feeling that these larger chains will go the way of the dinosaur as people have less money in their pockets, anyway. Small business owners have a way of connecting with the people in their community and assessing their needs. When $4/cup specialty coffees at Starbuck's are a luxury very few can afford, the small cafe offering coffee and a muffin for half that amount will have a better chance at succeeding.
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 3068 Location: The Urban Village
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
There is a big difference to keeping out "big box" retailers and a specific store like Starbucks.
Quote:
Big-Box" is descriptive of the physical characteristics of the building. A big box store is a large, free-standing, rectangular, generally single-floor store built on a concrete slab. The flat roof and ceiling trusses are generally made of steel, the walls are concrete block clad in metal or masonry siding. The interior can be either relatively luxurious, or starkly utilitarian, depending on the market niche of the firm and how it wishes to communicate that market position to its customers.
Physical characteristics are pretty enduring 20, 50, 100+ years. Also, the specific form of the freestanding store in a sea of parking makes creating a walkable environment impossible.
I agree with SPG that corporations don;t have rights, and that local communities should be able to regulate themselves. What is a chain ? Someone with two shops like my closest coffee shop - Murky Coffee ?
It is difficult to arrive at the precise policy language to regulate this. Regulate the form (physical characteristics) of your community, and help entrepreneurs overcome myopic banking practices toward independents and it will be better than trying to squash things. That's just advice, but as I said - it should be up to the locals - in the end you'll probably get what you deserve.
edit: you can harass chains by such things as sign ordinances that make it difficult for them to plop in their generic branding. This alone causes some to look elsewhere. Again, this is a physical thing that is easier to regulate. However, it also can inhibit innovative signage from independents as well.
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
WildRose wrote:
It's my feeling that these larger chains will go the way of the dinosaur as people have less money in their pockets, anyway. Small business owners have a way of connecting with the people in their community and assessing their needs. When $4/cup specialty coffees at Starbuck's are a luxury very few can afford, the small cafe offering coffee and a muffin for half that amount will have a better chance at succeeding.
I hope you're right. The problem is that Starbucks has a large amount of capital and local businesses don't. Starbucks can afford to sell it's product at a loss, force local businesses into bankruptcy, and then jack up the prices. IMHO, the problem is one that has political origins and will have to have political solutions. _________________ "We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 3068 Location: The Urban Village
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
smallpoxgirl wrote:
The problem is that Starbucks has a large amount of capital and local businesses don't. Starbucks can afford to sell it's product at a loss, force local businesses into bankruptcy, and then jack up the prices.
Is Starbucks cheaper than your local coffee shop ? Around here, when Starbucks came in, all the locals raised their prices because they suddenly realized that they could get almost $2 for a regular cup of coffee (although I'd bet that almost all of them are still cheaper than Starbucks). The locals were also forced to start giving better health care benefits (maybe thats why they raised the price, I guess) .
I really am not trying to defend Starbucks, its just that my experience about the effect on the local community has been different than many of you are saying.
Now, Home Depot and Walmart are another story in terms of the destruction to the local economy. But they are selling things for much less than the local hardware and department stores.
Joined: Dec 04, 2004 Posts: 2421 Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
The small town (under 10,000) I live in has totally managed to keep a lot of chain stores out. Starbucks made it in here by putting a little outlet in an already existing store (safeway groceries). I know the owner of one of the coffee chains here in town and the next time I see her I will ask her about it.
I do believe the petition should go to your local government. Find out about land zoning proceedures etc. Local shops add so much character that we've managed to improve our tourism and local economy by remaining an authentic town not filled with chains like everyone else. If I can find out who here was responsible for this I will PM you their info so you can talk to them directly.
Its a tough thing to keep these monsters out but they destroy the local economy. look on the web for info about how Wal-mart (or china-mart as we call it here) has ruined the US. That will give you one hell of a lot of arguements. If you make enough of a stink you can demand an open forum before they approve any chain store so that the residents can decide for themselves. Good luck!!!
Joined: Jun 05, 2005 Posts: 365 Location: Portland Oregon, USA
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
Although I agree with you in principle, I'd spend my time on other efforts. I live on a really hip street here in Portland. There is an independent coffee house -no kidding- every 3 blocks. They are all packed (mostly with laptop toting young adults blogging their angst about Peak Oil!). So are the Starbuckses. A few neighborhoods tried to keep them out, but to no avail. The truth is that many independent businesses actually LIKE having Starbucks nearby. It is a known brand with a loyal following. It creates loads of foot traffic. Even other cafes benefit by having Starbucks nearby.
Keep the faith, brother, but go after Wal-Mart. As other posters have mentioned, at least SB has health insurance and tuition assistance.
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 470 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
the people like starbucks.
the people have spoken !
starbucks has literally CREATED the coffeehouse phenomenon in most of the united states. they are singlehandedly responsible for the rapid inflation in the price of a cup of coffee and the proliferation of coffee culture everyhwere. they may be responsible for the success of more independent shops than the destruction of independent shops, and probably by a factor of 10-1.
i say, find a way to make it work to your advantage. flow with the go.
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 6786 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
Gideon wrote:
Your neighbors have spoken, Caver.
Beginning, middle, and end of story. That's all there is to it. _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
Gideon wrote:
Your neighbors have spoken Caver.
They haven't spoken, they've been jonesing. We are talking about a drug, caffeine. A more efficient dealer has come into the neighborhood. _________________ "We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
frankthetank wrote:
We don't even have a starbucks here.
Don't hold your breath. Starbucks is in the middle of adding 2000 sores to the USA. They're final making it to my town, with half a dozen locations currently under construction. They already snuck one in, inside of an existing Target.
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Secondly, the question is not some Bushesqe fantasy of freedom vs. those that hate freedom. The question is of whose freedom is pre-eminent. Should local people have the right to control the flavor of communities and their local commerce or should distant corporations have a right to impose their procrustean ideas of commerce, craft the whole world in their image, and convert it into a giant conveyer of cash going into a perpetually shrinking collection of pockets. Living in a world where everywhere looks like everywhere else and all the commerce is controlled by a few dozen CEO's thousands of miles away who suck up all the profits does not strike me as being freedom.
Your view of freedom is absurd. Just because you band together with some of your neighbors, you do not suddenly have the right to control what someone or some corporation does with its property so long as they do not commit overt acts of aggression against you. Competition in not aggression.
You are a fascist, pure and simple; that is not an accusation, it is a simple observation based on what you advocate. Maybe others should decide how you use your property based on their own wants and economic needs and tell you how to live your life, where to live and what business you are entitled to enter or not.
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
gego wrote:
Maybe others should decide how you use your property based on their own wants and economic needs and tell you how to live your life,
Ahh, but of course they do my friend. They are seizing, for example, 25% of my income to fight a war that benefits their corporations. They're seizing another 15% for the benefit of the pharmaceutical companies. Ever heard of zoning? Ever heard of building codes? Freedom of property is a joke my friend. The ONLY people that have freedom of property are those that have enough property to buy some freedom from a politician. The really rich ones can invest in a politician. The politicians are happy to sell them my property and my freedom at the right price. _________________ "We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: Re: trying to keep Starbucks out
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Ahh, but of course they do my friend. They are seizing, for example, 25% of my income to fight a war that benefits their corporations. They're seizing another 15% for the benefit of the pharmaceutical companies. Ever heard of zoning? Ever heard of building codes? Freedom of property is a joke my friend.
I am confused. You advocate your right to control the property of Starbucks, but you seem to object when you are deprived of your right to keep your own income and manage your own property. At least I am consistent in opposing all fascism including that your advocate and that to which you object.
I have heard of zoning laws and building codes and find them as objectionable which is why I live as far away from cities and towns as possible.
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