Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3904 Location: over here
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Thought it would be intersting to find the ratio between doomers powerdowners on this forum.
Let's say that a:
Doomer = somebody who believes in the almost total collapse of societies, countries with massive die-offs around the world, resource wars the size of a World War, with nukes. Basically armageddon.
PowerDowner = Somebody who thinks that we will face prolonged econonomic depression, some resource wars but contained, some die-off but mainly in third world countries. Societies and countries will remain mostly intact, biofuels and sustainable energy will play a role in a new economic equilibrium.
Cornucopian = Does not believe in the end of abundant oil/thinks technology will save the day. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
- Abraham Lincoln
Last edited by Bas on Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
I'm choosing the Doomer / Powerdowner combo, but I guess both will occur to a greater or lesser extent depending on geography.
I don't think that you need to believe that nukes will be let loose to be considered a doomer. This depends more on who has access to the nukes, and is not a direct result of PO.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3904 Location: over here
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
davep wrote:
I'm choosing the Doomer / Powerdowner combo, but I guess both will occur to a greater or lesser extent depending on geography.
People that know me know that I'm stubbornly powerdowner, some even despise me for it, but it won't change, you have to have something to believe in even if you don't know if that's how things will go. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Oct 12, 2004 Posts: 1012 Location: In the suburban sea of strangers
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Thanks for making the distinction between doomer and power-downer. To a cornucopian, any future other than one permitting a life of high consumption and universal automobility is doom, and anyone predicting such a future is a doomer. _________________ The battle to preserve our lifestyle has already been lost. The battle to preserve our lives is just beginning.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3904 Location: over here
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
interesting results so far, I thought the people here were more doomer than that...maybe they just shout more _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
I'm making a speech next weekend advocating powerdown. Not sure the reception I'll et, or more importantly, if people will actually act on what I say. I will lay out what they can do, and I have discovered and cultivated a lot of local resources (mostly farmers and farm related industries that are approachable).
If I don't get good results, count me in as a strict doomer.
Joined: Aug 13, 2004 Posts: 1185 Location: Richmond, VA, Pale Blue Dot
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Just drive less, and eat less meat...it's not that hard for people to do and when prices get high, people will do that anyway.
So much energy is wasted and I have no doubt that when people become aware of this, we will all be powerdowners by 2020, if not sooner.
What's the difference between a powerdowner and an environmentalist? Historical baggage? _________________ "If you are a real seeker after truth, it's necessary that at least once in your life you doubt all things as far as possible"-Rene Descartes
"When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"-Sherlock Holmes
Last edited by turmoil on Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
PowerDowner = Somebody who thinks that we will face prolonged econonomic depression, some resource wars but contained, some die-off but mainly in third world countries. Societies and countries will remain mostly intact, biofuels and sustainable energy will play a role in a new economic equilibrium.
Not even close. A PowerDowner believes we must downscale every aspect of our lives, restrict per capita consumption, and reduce the population from it's current level. We should develop sustainable energies that do not exceed the earth's capacity to prodcue or absorb. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3920 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
MonteQuest wrote:
Bas wrote:
PowerDowner = Somebody who thinks that we will face prolonged econonomic depression, some resource wars but contained, some die-off but mainly in third world countries. Societies and countries will remain mostly intact, biofuels and sustainable energy will play a role in a new economic equilibrium.
Not even close. A PowerDowner believes we must downscale every aspect of our lives, restrict per capita consumption, and reduce the population from it's current level. We should develop sustainable energies that do not exceed the earth's capacity to prodcue or absorb.
Hmm, Monty, his version is a lot closer to what I mean when I say powerdowner than your is. Perhaps you can do a seperate poll with your defenitions? Might be instructive. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Tanada wrote:
Hmm, Monty, his version is a lot closer to what I mean when I say powerdowner than your is. Perhaps you can do a seperate poll with your defenitions? Might be instructive.
Well, Richard Heinberg is know for his stand on Powerdown.
Heinberg wrote:
Powerdown — The path of cooperation, conservation, and sharing. The only realistic alternative to resource competition is a strategy that will require tremendous effort and
economic sacrifice in order to reduce per-capita resource
usage in wealthy countries, develop alternative energy
sources, distribute resources more equitably, and humanely
but systematically reduce the size of the human population
over time.
This is what a powerdown means, regardless of what others might say it is. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
There are a few other distinctions that have to be made ...
For example how would you classify Amory Lovins Bas?
He clearly believes that the amount of energy we use has to come down, but the services we get from energy do not have to.
I for example believe that the amount of services enjoyed, can in fact increase to a great extent by technological innovations/evolution/adoption of existing stuff in a grand scale but do see the reduction in energy consumption per capita as inevitable (and even desirable considering GCC).
I guess I have tovote for something between a cornocupian and a powerdowner _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3904 Location: over here
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
MonteQuest wrote:
Bas wrote:
PowerDowner = Somebody who thinks that we will face prolonged econonomic depression, some resource wars but contained, some die-off but mainly in third world countries. Societies and countries will remain mostly intact, biofuels and sustainable energy will play a role in a new economic equilibrium.
Not even close. A PowerDowner believes we must downscale every aspect of our lives, restrict per capita consumption, and reduce the population from it's current level. We should develop sustainable energies that do not exceed the earth's capacity to prodcue or absorb.
it's purely a question of interpretion and my definitions will do fine for this poll, thank you. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
Bas wrote:
PowerDowner = Somebody who thinks that we will face prolonged econonomic depression, some resource wars but contained, some die-off but mainly in third world countries. Societies and countries will remain mostly intact, biofuels and sustainable energy will play a role in a new economic equilibrium.
Not even close. A PowerDowner believes we must downscale every aspect of our lives, restrict per capita consumption, and reduce the population from it's current level. We should develop sustainable energies that do not exceed the earth's capacity to prodcue or absorb.
it's purely a question of interpretion and my definitions will do fine for this poll, thank you.
I prefer your interpetation because it it made me not a doomer. If I use monte's then I'm back to doomer. Bummer.
Joined: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 1001 Location: Down Under
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
None of us neatly slot into a single category of peaknic, or even somewhere between two different categories.
Does powerdowner necessarily mean believing in a dieoff, or is that more doomer? Does believing in possible mitigation of disruptions through powerdown mean purely powerdowner, or does any belief in a relatively smooth transition make one a cornicopian? Does believing in a continuing role of technology in our future necessarily mean cornicopian, or is that part powerdowner?
These definitions that we use are useless. We are all a little bit of everything, it’s just a question of how much percentage of each.
I’ve been told that I’m a cornucopian simply because I believe that future technologies will be of huge importance in shaping the future. I believe in a high-tech future. But I also think we are headed for some difficult times which we will only be able to get through with powerdown ideals. So I guess I’m also somewhere in between powerdownder and cornucopian. Yet most doomers would easily consider me a cornucopian. Likewise, I would consider some people’s ideas of a powerdown to be far more doomer then powerdown. But then I also think that in the long run, advanced technology is our only hope, which makes me part doomer. _________________ "Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Next
Page 1 of 5
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
L
