Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3782 Location: over here
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
MonteQuest wrote:
As time goes on, I am becoming increasingly convinced that change will come only when we hit that wall, not before. The change will be coping and adapting. Forget fixes and transition.
That has been my conviction for a long time; change will not come through political resolve, but only when the market forces us to change; the market however will point out better solutions than politicians could ever provide us with. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
gg3 wrote:
Do not under any circumstances use opium recreationally because it is after all the prototypical addictive narcotic and the risk of addiction is very high for most people. However it is worthwhile learning the technique of turning the raw plant sap into a form that can be smoked, so you can do it if there is a need.
Hi gg3,
Disagree here. I've home-grown opium before and smoked it for pleasure & I'm still here (grin). The natural product is a mile away from the refined s**t that addicts use. Also in a temperate climate the season is very short so you really don't have long enough to get addicted unless you are growing it on a field scale (which would be very stoopid).
Same as with cannabis resin, the main danger is getting addicted to the damn tobacco you have to roll it up in (sic).
In a post-peak, self-sufficiency world we have to have a few seasonal pleasures to look forward to (grin...)
JPL _________________ The three most beautiful things in the world -
a full-rigged ship, a woman with child and a full moon.
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
As time goes on, I am becoming increasingly convinced that change will come only when we hit that wall, not before. The change will be coping and adapting. Forget fixes and transition.
That has been my conviction for a long time; change will not come through political resolve, but only when the market forces us to change; the market however will point out better solutions than politicians could ever provide us with.
Oh yea, better add my bit I guess...
Been a doomer for 20 years because of an addiction I had back in the 1980's to changing the world. At the height of my enthusisasm I stood for election in the UK as a 'Green Party' candidate & got 12% of the vote.
That was good but it was trying to win over the other 88% that finally got me down, and I eventually ceased my membership of 'the party' (
So, Doomer? Yes. Power-downer, yes as well.
For me, Peak Oil is not the issue. Or rather it IS the issue, but it's the latest in a long series of convergent issues. Maybe this latest debate will as a catalyst for change, but at the moment I still don't see many people 'getting it'.
So if we don't start to poll more than 12% soon then we are definitely 'doomed', but, speaking as one that's already 'powered-down', then if the other 88% finally decide to come on board, then us 'Green types' are still quite willing to show them how to do it (pleuggh...).
JPL _________________ The three most beautiful things in the world -
a full-rigged ship, a woman with child and a full moon.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3782 Location: over here
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
I was raised during the eighties, JPL my father was sort of Green and taught me about global warming and the running out of oil when i was about 8, the emphasys lay heavily on global warming though. What I'm trying to say is that I always believed global warming was going to happen, and that we would do something about it in time (you know how kids are). Also in the 90's there were more and more reports on climate change on tv in this country, and everybody took it for absolutely true except that we didn't know how soon we would notice it and to what extend.
(which we still don't, but it's getting clearer)
Imagine my suprise when I went online some years ago and talked to Americans who flatout denied pretty much the existence of CO2 Kinda made me cynical trying to convince them but I'm glad it's being taken much more serious over there now. Irony wants that my father once worked for exxon, the same company that has been sponsoring the disinformation campaign concerning global warming in the US...
Anyway, my whole family votes green and have been for years but it hasn't made the impact we were hoping for either (about 12% of the votes in the late 90's and only half that today)(In holland that is btw) _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
Anyway, my whole family votes green and have been for years but it hasn't made the impact we were hoping for either (about 12% of the votes in the late 90's and only half that today)(In holland that is btw)
Hi Bas,
Cheers, I for one intend to spend the rest of my days saying 'I told you so'. Have made a start already, as you can probably tell ;o)
JPL _________________ The three most beautiful things in the world -
a full-rigged ship, a woman with child and a full moon.
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 366 Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
...my father was sort of Green and taught me about global warming and the running out of oil when i was about 8...Imagine my suprise when I went online some years ago and talked to Americans who flatout denied pretty much the existence of CO2...
Please don't think that we're all clueless propaganda victims over here, many Americans have been tracking both of these problems for quite some time.
It's funny how similar our backgrounds are. I was also clued-in at an early age, my father talked and worried alot about energy issues, pollution, and nuclear war primarily. My subscription to National Geographic dates back to my gradeschool days.
If there had been a "POWERDOOMER" option I would have selected it. _________________ "He who makes no mistakes isn't trying hard enough" Genghis Khan
"Everyone here is bribed not to kill each other." foodnotlawns
Coinflation.com
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3782 Location: over here
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Aimrehtopyh wrote:
Bas wrote:
...my father was sort of Green and taught me about global warming and the running out of oil when i was about 8...Imagine my suprise when I went online some years ago and talked to Americans who flatout denied pretty much the existence of CO2...
Please don't think that we're all clueless propaganda victims over here, many Americans have been tracking both of these problems for quite some time.
It's funny how similar our backgrounds are. I was also clued-in at an early age, my father talked and worried alot about energy issues, pollution, and nuclear war primarily. My subscription to National Geographic dates back to my gradeschool days.
If there had been a "POWERDOOMER" option I would have selected it.
I don't think that at all, actually, over the years I've met some really bright American individuals here in Europe (somehow the victims of propaganda don't travel to Europe, well not much anyway) But it is true; lot's of Europeans think that almost all Americans are like that and it's almost as tiresome to try to convince them that's not the case as it is talking about global warming to some Americans. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3782 Location: over here
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
JPL wrote:
Bas wrote:
Anyway, my whole family votes green and have been for years but it hasn't made the impact we were hoping for either (about 12% of the votes in the late 90's and only half that today)(In holland that is btw)
Hi Bas,
Cheers, I for one intend to spend the rest of my days saying 'I told you so'. Have made a start already, as you can probably tell ;o)
JPL
You kind of remind me of my father actually, though he must be a lot older than you. He actually had a burn out at the beginning of the nineties over, among some other things, the issue of global warming/the environment. Sad to say he hasn't really recovered since _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
You kind of remind me of my father actually, though he must be a lot older than you. He actually had a burn out at the beginning of the nineties over, among some other things, the issue of global warming/the environment. Sad to say he hasn't really recovered since
Hi Bas,
Ouch. I know one or two people that had the same burn-out. It's the feeling of impotance that gets to you. I'm sorry about your dad.
I went to our nearest city today to buy some supplies I couldn't get locally - Rennes. These days I don't leave the smallholding much (not much point, really) and I had a mental note to trim my beard and put on some clean clothes (I spent the weekend pruning fruit trees and everything was a bit green-stained).
Then I thought- bugger it! What am I trying to prove? My wife & I got in the car, shovelled seed catalogues and bits of hay off the driver's seat and I (for one) went to town in my usual kit, plus my trusty all-weather combat jacket (cos it looked like rain was on its way). Bought our stuff and then had a nice meal, sat next to all the guys with the mobile phones and the suits.
Over the meal my wife & I talked (and argued - but nicely) about the cost of certain things post peak and if we should have bought more of the stuff I favour (like carbon-fibre tool handles) or hers' - (suitable trees so we can grow and make our own tool-handles).
I wonder what they thought of us? Only time will tell (grin). But I don't feel despondent right now - the time-lines are slowly catching up with us ;o)
JPL _________________ The three most beautiful things in the world -
a full-rigged ship, a woman with child and a full moon.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3782 Location: over here
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
JPL wrote:
Hi Bas,
Ouch. I know one or two people that had the same burn-out. It's the feeling of impotance that gets to you. I'm sorry about your dad.
I went to our nearest city today to buy some supplies I couldn't get locally - Rennes. These days I don't leave the smallholding much (not much point, really) and I had a mental note to trim my beard and put on some clean clothes (I spent the weekend pruning fruit trees and everything was a bit green-stained).
Then I thought- bugger it! What am I trying to prove? My wife & I got in the car, shovelled seed catalogues and bits of hay off the driver's seat and I (for one) went to town in my usual kit, plus my trusty all-weather combat jacket (cos it looked like rain was on its way). Bought our stuff and then had a nice meal, sat next to all the guys with the mobile phones and the suits.
Over the meal my wife & I talked (and argued - but nicely) about the cost of certain things post peak and if we should have bought more of the stuff I favour (like carbon-fibre tool handles) or hers' - (suitable trees so we can grow and make our own tool-handles).
I wonder what they thought of us? Only time will tell (grin). But I don't feel despondent right now - the time-lines are slowly catching up with us ;o)
JPL
It's the feeling of importance combined with the frustration of powerlessness to do something about it, yeah. Luckily today we have the internet; helps me to get rid of my frustrations about GW and PO.
Rennes eh? I used to a mentor for foreign students and made friends with this one guy studying political science who was from Rennes. Tell him I said hi
And sounds like you have things pretty well in order for PO. I live in a medium city and don't have the capital to buy a piece of land unfortunately. Nor do I know much about growing food. Not sure where to begin preparing; maybe I should start with stocking up on bicycle parts, hmmmmm _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: May 19, 2004 Posts: 892 Location: San Francisco, California
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
I was reading Bruce Sterling's latest "State of the World" conversation and I came across this gem about the optimist vs. pessimist debate. In one awesome paragraph, he shows the whole controversy to be quite silly. It made me think of this group.
To do serious futurism you need to think historically. The future is a kind of history that hasn't happened yet. If someone asked if you were optimistic or pessimistic about the 19th century, that question would have no meaning. If you wrote a book about the 19th century and you said it was the worst of all possible centuries and that only glum, terrible, and degrading things happened then, you'd be clearly fraudulent. You wouldn't be considered a great historian; it'd be obvious to everybody that you had some kind of bee in your bonnet.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3782 Location: over here
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
johnmarkos wrote:
I was reading Bruce Sterling's latest "State of the World" conversation and I came across this gem about the optimist vs. pessimist debate. In one awesome paragraph, he shows the whole controversy to be quite silly. It made me think of this group.
To do serious futurism you need to think historically. The future is a kind of history that hasn't happened yet. If someone asked if you were optimistic or pessimistic about the 19th century, that question would have no meaning. If you wrote a book about the 19th century and you said it was the worst of all possible centuries and that only glum, terrible, and degrading things happened then, you'd be clearly fraudulent. You wouldn't be considered a great historian; it'd be obvious to everybody that you had some kind of bee in your bonnet.
I think there's a logic fallacy in there, in that you cannot be optimistic or pessimistic about anything that has already fully played out. However you can be optimistic/pessimistic about the future as being optimistic/pessimistic in it's very essence draws on the as yet unknown future; I find it a very weak argument as if from someone who is lost in philosophy and books. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
I live in a medium city and don't have the capital to buy a piece of land unfortunately. Nor do I know much about growing food. Not sure where to begin preparing; maybe I should start with stocking up on bicycle parts, hmmmmm
Hi Bas,
I'd advise getting a copy of the 'The Earth Care Manual: A Permaculture Handbook for Britain and Other Temperate Countries' by Patrick Whitefield.
He is dead keen on urban gardens and co-operatives. Lots of ideas in there...
JPL _________________ The three most beautiful things in the world -
a full-rigged ship, a woman with child and a full moon.
Joined: May 19, 2004 Posts: 892 Location: San Francisco, California
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
Bas wrote:
I think there's a logic fallacy in there, in that you cannot be optimistic or pessimistic about anything that has already fully played out. However you can be optimistic/pessimistic about the future as being optimistic/pessimistic in it's very essence draws on the as yet unknown future; I find it a very weak argument as if from someone who is lost in philosophy and books.
It's not really an argument in the philosophical sense of the word. Rather, he's looking at the optimist/pessimist debate from the point of view of what it looks like to talk about a hundred years in completely positive or negative terms. He's taking the long view. And since, in the long term, we'll all be dead (odds are good we'll all be dead by 2100), it doesn't make sense to generalize about such a period in a positive or negative way.
Anyway, I don't think it's right to look for philosophical consistency here. Rather, look for insight, an "Aha!" moment. I had one. If you don't, well, that's OK.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3782 Location: over here
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: Re: Doomer or PowerDowner?
johnmarkos wrote:
It's not really an argument in the philosophical sense of the word. Rather, he's looking at the optimist/pessimist debate from the point of view of what it looks like to talk about a hundred years in completely positive or negative terms. He's taking the long view. And since, in the long term, we'll all be dead (odds are good we'll all be dead by 2100), it doesn't make sense to generalize about such a period in a positive or negative way.
Anyway, I don't think it's right to look for philosophical consistency here. Rather, look for insight, an "Aha!" moment. I had one. If you don't, well, that's OK.
Maybe I missed some context that you had when reading this. Also I think people here characterize themselves as more optimistic/pessimistic in a relative sense only; when comparing themselves to others (except the hardcoredoomers who seem to be very absolute in their expectations). BTW, considering what we're facing (PO/GW) I regard myself as neither an optimist nor a pessimist, besides that there are too many things up in the air, most importantly (to me) are the solutions that the market WILL provide in a situation of much more expensive energy. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
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Kinda made me cynical trying to convince them but I'm glad it's being taken much more serious over there now. Irony wants that my father once worked for exxon, the same company that has been sponsoring the disinformation campaign concerning global warming in the US...
