How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: Reviews of "Lights Out"
I've finished reading the 600+ pages of Lights Out by Halfast and would like to hear reviews by others on the book's effect on their planning. Detailed discussion of FEMA/DHS political speculation/ranting is inappropriate in this forum, though there are many other forums (such as Open Discussion or other sites) where such discussion is commonplace.
I'll start it off. If the central tenets of the overall theme (evolution of large, organized groups of bandits) are even remotely or partially accurate predictions of what would happen in an EMP event, then being in an intentional, sustainable community would be the best way to address such risks.
In the event of PO, such groups would likely evolve in a different manner, though they might indeed eventually end up in a similar manner. I'm not sure if many of the intentional communities now are well prepared to fend off bandit groups of 100+.
In those intentional communities that might be able to, I would be concerned that there might be a number of individuals that might exhibit behaviors similar to the character Jon Olsen. Let's face it; survivalists (or whatever term is appropriate) are not always well-adjusted team players, and any such group with over 100 members armed to the teeth is likely to have several cranks .
I note that the Silver Hills community was still highly reliant on petroleum, which made their solution incongruent with a PO scenario, though to be fair, that wasn't the risk being 'wargamed' in the book. For example, the use of horses for agriculture and limited transportation would be, in my opinion, warranted for long term sustainment of a such a community. While I believe it is possible for each family to tend 1-4 acres, I note the Amish have a hard row to hoe even with the use of workhorses.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2663 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
I quite liked the story and found it easy to get into for long stretches at a time. I'll agree some of the scenario's are too over the top but at least the story makes fun of almost all of them. I did change my preps a little based on the story.
I have more firepower and Ammo then before.
I now store considerably more cash in the safe ( nowhere near the 10,000 they did though)
I have also started looking to relocate even further out somewhere more remote. My current property can't be defended without getting half of the neighbourhood involved and the other half won't be happy about being left out. Too bad their property is on nice level ground right next to the highway. Almost impossible to defend without big infrastructure additions.
Anyways The story was enjoyable and is worth a read if you're into doomer porn. _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Joined: Sep 02, 2005 Posts: 2848 Location: In a Nigerian compound surrounded by mighty dignataries
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
I was wondering when someone would start a discussion about Lights out. Very nice piece of work. I would recomend this as mandatory reading for the beginner doomer because it covers so much.
I liked how the local dynamic of power held by the Sherriff played out vs. the FEMA(now homeland security) factor. _________________ In other words, it's a huge sh*t sandwich, and we're all gonna have to take a bite.-from Full Metal Jacket
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
Just finished. Predictable, but a very good book. The more we read about disaster scenarios like this, the less startling real events should be - and they'll be plenty startling even if we have ideas from books like this in the back of our minds...
Thoughts:
I think I need some additional spare parts and a lot more fuel for my tractor!
How much thought have any of you given to EMP??
Karate Man had an awful lot of good luck... _________________ Oil - it's what's for dinner.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2663 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
I researched EMP after reading the story and discovered noone really knows what will happen, how to defend against it and what will be effected. If you're really worried keep your electronics in a metal cage and they should survive. I didn't have the money to duplicate everything so I haven't bothered.
Yeah he got lucky a whole bunch of times. _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
With a little more time to write now I have some additional thoughts to throw out for comment. (One at a time...) Foremost is the challenge of holding a viable group together under any circumstances - let alone such stressful ones.
The Jon Olsen character and the FEMA suckup deputy sheriff are but two of the problematic legions you would have to contend with in real life. There are so many slackers out there today that I suspect any accidental group such as Silver Hills would quickly disintegrate over the issue of work ethic alone.
You'll notice that the tenets of liberalism didn't fare too well in "Lights Out". But for one honest sheriff (the good - they die young!) the government turned out to be utterly useless (until it later metastasized into a real threat). The everyday folks who held liberal views had to adapt to reality very rapidly. In the book people went from "Eeeew - I don't like guns" to "teach me to shoot" pretty quickly. Would this happen in the real world?
The heroes who carried the day were the ones with military experience and fighting skills. They were the gun owners and the hunters, and they tried to live by biblical principles. (Gunny didn't just shack up with his new sweetie - notice he drove back to his own house every night until he married her! How many of you who post here are contemptuous of, if not downright hostile toward much of what such people stand for??? Do you suppose they'd have a bit of trouble trusting you if you showed up at the gate??? Food for thought...)
Regarding the above values - my view is that to be trustworthy when TSHTF you must come so equipped. As they say in the insurance business, a pre-existing condition. I liked the Mark character's healthy respect for other people's property. This is a trait that did not spring up overnight. He was reluctant to accept favors, let alone gifts. He always offered value in trade, and looked for win-win exchanges.
Were he not trustworthy, Mark could not have become heroic. This is the big difference between Mark and Jon, who certainly didn't lack fighting skills.
Mark is the type of person I'd happily share my home and preparations with, while at the same time I'd be thinking seriously about how soon I'd have to shoot folks like Jon (or my Quisling socialist neighbors, just to keep them from turning me in to FEMA for ''hoarding"...)
It's for this reason that I mistrust intentional communities. I actually looked into two such groups and found them populated with utopian leftist types. These folks were (and I'm sure still are) hostile to the liberties I hold most dear - namely private property rights (and the free enterprise system that springs from them) along with unfettered gun ownership (liberty's teeth). If the lights really went out, I'm not sure I'd trust these real-life left-wing types to come to the party as readily as did the fictional liberal characters in "Lights Out".
Sorry, but in survival/combat, mindset is everything. If you want to be trusted in such a scenario, understand that most people would need to know that you'd walked the talk since well before you ran outta food! (No offense intended if you're a lefty. Really. Please read the book before you attack me on this, ok?)
Here in the real world I have a few trustworthy neighbors (none, sadly, like Gunny) and a few trustworthy friends. That Quisling socialist I mentioned is real too. Not even all my famiily falls into the most trusted category, hence none of them currently know much about my preparations. That's it. Not all of us are as young or in the kind of health I wish we were, and our numbers and skills are nowhere near what's needed to put forth the community effort we saw in Lights Out.
There you have it. For me the most improbable aspect of the book was the cohesive accidental community and what they accomplished.
How would we succeed at this in the real world??? Thoughts, everyone??? _________________ Oil - it's what's for dinner.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2663 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
A lot of what happened with the community falling into line and working together can be explained by their basic sheeple mentality.
Even after TSHTF they remained sheeple.
Marc proved himself as a capable leader and from that point on they simply did what he suggested they do. The fact that he told them to farm, defend themselves and build a community is all thats different from todays suburbs where we're told to spend, wait for the government and watch tv.
Although I don't remember it being specifically pointed out I got the distinct feeling that even while being attacked at the end there was still some people that ran to hide in their houses rather then getting out there and helping defend. I'm not convinced people can change their basic nature. _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
Lights Out originally started as a serial at Frugal Squirrels in the member stories section. I spent some time there while waiting for Dan to get this site going ;>)
Anyway, I feel it is good Doomer Porn with all the associated baggage.
In fact it prompted me to write my own TEOTW - EMP story, my first writing since High School. You could probably find it in the stories archive at Frugals if you care for that sort of thing.
It was called: The End Of The Revolution _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
I've read it and I do think the collapse they are showing in there is a very good timeline for a collapse to take, given a harsh well defined event like an EMP pulse or some other disaster that knocks out everything all at once.
Hoever the part I found most unbelieveable and which wrecked the whole story for me was the 2 main characters being given the cash and silver ... that drove me nuts through the rest of the book when they bartered for stuff they needed and used that cash I thought .. geez look at where'd you be if that convenient little pile of cash didn't just get dropped on your lap.
Joined: Jul 07, 2005 Posts: 57 Location: Western Washington State
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
I’m also about a third of the way through it, see Laurasia’s comment above. It is an addictive story. About the only change in mindset it has had on me is to look a little more seriously at the guns and ammo I would like to have. One huge gap that is bugging me so far (I’m only on about page 220) is how they plan to irrigate their gardens/crops. Having put myself through college raising sweet corn I know what a thirsty crop it can be. So far it is all the community can do to supply drinking water and a bit for showers. I’ll keep reading and keep in mind its just fiction.
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 474 Location: Northern US
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
Am up to about page 190 something, so please no more expilcit spoilers (the windmill).
Makes me want for such a community,
Saw Gunny's 'thing' coming,
Pointed out several family shortfalls,
Makes ya' think about 'what if,'
And yes, I too find reading it a bit addictive!
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 2791 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Reviews of "Lights Out"
Very crude writer, like most self-published types. Flat characters/dialog/plots. We're engrossed in the story itself and don't care - I watch Jericho even though it has plot holes you could drive a deuce-and-a half through, with room to spare for a Hummer.
I'm going to print it out in "dead tree form" anyway, so I can read it at my leisure in "meatspace." _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
Walter, there is an unspoken message here.
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