Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1008 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
I just did a little checking with our local grocery store here in the South, Harris Teeter, and they do have canvas bags available for customers, at an initial cost of course. They just don't advertise the fact very well. _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
Lore wrote:
They don't use virgin timber to make paper bags.
Really? What percentage of post-consumer content are they using?
I would be willing to bet that at least 99% of shopping bags are less than 1% post-consumer content. Therefore they must be made from virgin pulp. AKA timber or trees.
If you thought I was meaning they are from old growth, well that may not be far off the mark either. Old growth is definitely used to make such things are toilet paper and paper towels link. I wouldn't be too surprised if there's some of it ending up in paper bags too. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1008 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
I was refering to old growth. Far too expensive a use for just paper; virgin pulp is something else.
Quote:
Much of the wood used by paper companies in the U.S. comes from privately owned tree farms where forests are planted, groomed and thinned for harvest in 20 to 35 year cycles, depending on the tree species. Around the world, tree farms supply 16% of all wood used in the paper industry while the bulk comes from second growth forests. Only 9% of the wood used to make paper is harvested from old growth forests, which are impossible to replace because of their maturity.
LINK _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
If 9% of wood for paper pulp comes from old-growth, I think that's a pretty shocking number considering that less than 3% of US forests are old growth. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1008 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
smallpoxgirl wrote:
If 9% of wood for paper pulp comes from old-growth, I think that's a pretty shocking number considering that less than 3% of US forests are old growth.
I believe the 9% quote figure refers to the world wide percentage of old growth used. _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: May 19, 2004 Posts: 892 Location: San Francisco, California
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
MonteQuest wrote:
I think we should ban bags period.
Yes, and ban string. And any contrivance for carrying a more items than can fit in a person's arms.
Quote:
Bring your own reuseable bag to the store.
Wait a minute . . . I thought you were with me on the no bag thing!
Quote:
Forgot your bag? Then put your items back in the grocery cart, and bag them from the trunk when you get home.
Seriously, I think that's quite reasonable. I already do this. I keep my bags handy too.
Have you noticed that we don't use string much any more? In olden days, before plastic bags were everywhere, people used to wrap packages in string. Everyone had some string around. String was cool. I think we should bring back string. String is also useful for practicing knots.
But anyway, as a San Francisco resident, I should point out that this is not a conservation issue -- it's a waste disposal issue. The city doesn't want to have to pick up plastic bags littered all over the streets. They make a mess. Also, because we're on the ocean, they contribute to the great North Pacific Garbage Dump. I'm glad they're going away.
Joined: May 19, 2004 Posts: 892 Location: San Francisco, California
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
kochevnik wrote:
This ingenuity and willingness to sacrifice just goes to show what it really takes for people to band together to solve the problems we face in the near future.
Words just fail me ... oh wait here are a few that come to mind ...
Seriously. If any city is trying to prepare for the future, this one is. Not to diminish the positive actions of some other cities but we do have a large number of people trying to move things in the right direction.
As always, a political process takes negotiation and people put things on the agenda that you may not agree with. If peak oil is your thing, maybe you don't care so much about the baggie question. However, I think it's still a positive step -- just not a step related to conservation.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
johnmarkos wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
I think we should ban bags period.
Yes, and ban string. And any contrivance for carrying a more items than can fit in a person's arms.
Quote:
Bring your own reuseable bag to the store.
Wait a minute . . . I thought you were with me on the no bag thing!
Ban throw-away paper and plastic bags. Reuseable cloth bags that can last for years is ok, don't you think?
Ban string in one sentence and then advocate briinging it back in another?
Which is it? _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: May 19, 2004 Posts: 892 Location: San Francisco, California
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
MonteQuest wrote:
johnmarkos wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
I think we should ban bags period.
Yes, and ban string. And any contrivance for carrying a more items than can fit in a person's arms.
Quote:
Bring your own reuseable bag to the store.
Wait a minute . . . I thought you were with me on the no bag thing!
Ban throw-away paper and plastic bags. Reuseable cloth bags that can last for years is ok, don't you think?
I'd rather tax than ban but basically yeah. Let people use the sacks they want but make them pay for the privilege of using disposable bags.
Quote:
Ban string in one sentence and then advocate briinging it back in another?
Which is it?
Sorry, no matter how hard I try to go there, I can't seriously advocate banning string. I was joking. Of course, maybe you were joking too and you out-deadpanned my deadpan.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
johnmarkos wrote:
I'd rather tax than ban but basically yeah. Let people use the sacks they want but make them pay for the privilege of using disposable bags.
I say ban our throw-away "convenience" oriented society.
Ban aluminum cans, most plastic bottles, Styrofoam, etc.
Go back to refillable, reusable glass and charge a stiff deposit.
Sell in bulk. Let people bring their own containers to fill.
To go orders at a restaurant require your own to-go container.
Like Kunstler says, " We are going to have to make other arrangements." _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: San Francisco bans the Plastic Bag
MonteQuest wrote:
...
I say ban our throw-away "convenience" oriented society.
Ban aluminum cans, most plastic bottles, Styrofoam, etc.
Go back to refillable, reusable glass and charge a stiff deposit.
Sell in bulk. Let people bring their own containers to fill.
To go orders at a restaurant require your own to-go container.
Like Kunstler says, " We are going to have to make other arrangements."
Monty if you want to get rid of the throw-away "convenience" oriented society...I think this extends far beyond just bags and containers. An argument can be said that our entire economy is based on the concept of throwing things away. Most things in today's world do NOT get repaired...they get replaced:
1) Need new brake pads for your car? A mechanic today would probably advocate throwing out the entire brake caliper/assemble....that and there's probably more to be made by doing that!
2) When was the last time you heard of anyone calling a repair man to fix a broken refrigerator? ---> might as well buy a new one
3) Is there such a thing as a consumer electronic repairman? (TV, computers, cameras)
4) How many Starbucks drinking iPod listening teenagers today know how to take a needle and thread to fix a small rip in their clothes?
I've disagreed with you before many times but strangely enough the ultimate end result of a post PO "MonteQuest scenario" doesn't look that much different then the "Cube - scenario"....just minus the genetically engineered apes taking over the planet.
IMHO most of the debates on this board does NOT revolve around what the ultimate end result will be but how do we get there?
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