Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3429 Location: California, USA
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
What will happen to the oil companies if they keep being outrageous, is that they will end up being nationalized. Even in the US. There was talk of such things in the 1970s. It will recur when the circumstances are right.
As for Cobasys, the solution to that is for the next Administration (Gore, Obama, Clinton, whoever) to simply nationalize the patent, as is done with items of high national defense significance that might otherwise fall into an adversary's hands.
Hoo-boy don't I sound like a socialist tonight?:-) And yet, those f---ers are inviting it, just daring the public to demand it.
A free-market solution would be "more interesting." Import NiMH batteries from China, labeled as "advanced lead-acid" or "NiCad" or whatever. Sneaking them into the country can't be any harder than sneaking in the tons of cocaine and heroin that rot our cities from the core. Sell them via word of mouth, or "speakeasy" outlets on the internet for those in the know. Get them into enough cars that people start to notice if they're paying attention. If nothing else, do it for R&D purposes to develop appropriate platforms for the day when the patents expire.
And if government or Cobasys tries to raise a stink, fight like hell or countersue, and turn it into the biggest public relations nightmare Chevron has had in years. Drag it out until the patents expire and then have it declared moot. Offer to settle for the 2007 equivalent of what GM paid in its trial for conspiracy for having torn up the urban light rail systems in the 1930s. Turn the trial into a circus, Abbie Hoffman style (remember him? 1960s radical with a taste for humorous tactics).
One could also do the full "Operation Rescue treatment" for the people responsible for usurping the batteries. Publish all their private information online including the locations of their homes and plenty of pictures. Hell, publish pictures of their kids with a title such as "daddy is leaving a dead planet for his own children," and they'll get all paranoid that it's a kidnapping threat. Show up at their homes with signs saying "this is the man who decided to block the batteries for practical electric vehicles" and so on. Make life hell for those people, peacefully and legally, until they relent or get carted out of there in straightjackets.
Or we could just sit on our hands and wit the f---ers out, because their patent will expire in 7 years, and then Panasonic will start making these things in enormous quantity at low cost (as they were about to do before Cobasys screwed 'em) and it's game over we win.
---
Yo TC, Dumb Question department: What does it take to get 35 to 40 miles per hour, 100 mile range, and decent hill climbing ability? Could you compare that to the specs of some of the city/highway vehicles you're describing? What I'm thinking of here is a sturdy rural workhorse vehicle, the electric equivalent of a Citroen 2CV. Max 4 passengers with very little cargo, or 2 passengers plus fold down the rear seat for lots of cargo.
Also what would it take to build a higher-range battery pack for a Zap Xebra, for example 100 mile range at 30 miles per hour?
Scenario is, rural sustainable community, personal vehicle for practical trips to nearby town and back on a single full charge with a little room to spare.
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 846 Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
The Firefly cell launch for Husqvarna/Electrolux appliances has been pushed back to Q1/Q2 2008 according to that link. In case this will include lawnmower/tractors segment that equals wild run of EV people on their stores because this could be most probably in the 50Ah-100Ah territory and that's an ideal EV size.
In case only smaller cells sub 50Ah will be innitially available - power tools/cordless lawnmowers that's jolly good for hybrid ebikes or the high voltage pack freaks so not bad scenario anyway.
But I doubt they will be eager to sell these separetely at least from the start - they certainly have some hybrid/OEM dept. which would be pissed off by diyers beating them to the market with their conversions. But little push won't be bad, ask your local dealership in advance to show there is interest for this option. Thanks or Tack as they say in Sweden. Btw. any info about the Husqvarna batt. factories are they located in Europe?
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
What I've never understood about Firefly is since they were created by CAT to find a superior battery for heavy equipment why are they targeting smaller batteries for lawn mowers first?
Unless it's a scalability issue and they've figured out how to make smaller batteries first, but a car/truck/equipment battery isn't radically different than a large garden tractor battery, so I don't get it. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 846 Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
JRP3> Well I'd like to buy 100-200Ah FireFly cells on Monday too but they are basically struggling with the following issues: developing/perfecting the battery concept-technology on the go because of the competition (lithium) and also working on the actual manuf. processes for different perfomance markets. That basic type (due Q1 2008) and also the more advanced model with higher density and fast recharge times - called "3D" the real deal battery which is and will perhaps remain US army only.
Somewhere between those two performancewise would be placed a hybrid/OEM type of battery, again with preproduction testing lasting for years.. Unfortunately that's how business and launching new technology always works, very very slowly..
So, far from what has leaked out the first Husqvarna/Electrolux run won't be bigger than 50-100Ah - and I'm afraid it could be even smaller because of all these "cordless lawnmower" announcements - these are not "big" lawnmower tractors just tiny kiddies appliances with 20-40Ah cells..
Now, the biggest blow would be some moronic OEM only arrangement for the bigger cells around 100Ah so diyers can't spoil the party of the big business at least for a while so yet another delay..
Obviously sooner or later the Chinese or Russians or whoever will get hold of it but that's like ten years from now, speaking about the actual (reverse engineered) product to the market journey.. _________________ DOOMerotron: at all-time high [8.1] out of 10..
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 846 Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: 300mpg car update!
The 300mpg car update!
Just a few minutes old pictures from todays expo in Hannover, Germany. They showed a bit refined model of Loremo, mainly in the interior dept. Prototype is expected to be out in the fall this year at another show..
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
Why the over-engineering to create a whole folding front end, windshield, and steering column, which looks as if it's a pain in the ass to get into and out of? Are they trying to make them un-sellable? Seems to me a regular side door would be much easier, cheaper, and more practical. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
JRP3 wrote:
Why the over-engineering to create a whole folding front end, windshield, and steering column, which looks as if it's a pain in the ass to get into and out of? Are they trying to make them un-sellable? Seems to me a regular side door would be much easier, cheaper, and more practical.
Because its the future silly, like they make all of the hybrid cars look like spaceships they are convinced people like that. In the end, its just a hinge and could be redesigned very easily.
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 846 Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
?!
The design of Loremo is based on this cage superstructure so it's light, sturdy, safe and cheap. You can't have traditional doors there (another sub cx .20 have same concept)!
But I don't like the the interior/dashboard as well, something more like GM EV1 style interior would be much better.
But the overall design is just perfect work of industrial design/art they won't have problems to sell their whole production capacity beforehand in few weeks. But I don't believe it will reach this stage or at least not as soon as by 2009.. _________________ DOOMerotron: at all-time high [8.1] out of 10..
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
I don't know, there are lightweight safe cars with normal doors. Smart car being an example, so I don't buy it that they had to build it that way for safety. I also see a big potential for leaks dripping down on you after a while with that system. I'm not as enthusiastic as you on this design, it seems like engineering with no real point. A front end that is completely disconnected from the body of the car doesn't seem like a great idea, on top of the fact that it looks as if it makes access to the vehicle more difficult. I doubt most people over 65 could even get in and out of the car. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
TV clip about the support from regional government (Bavaria is home of BMW among others) plus nice camera shots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYinpuSyCoM _________________ DOOMerotron: at all-time high [8.1] out of 10..
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
Quote:
A free-market solution would be "more interesting." Import NiMH batteries from China, labeled as "advanced lead-acid" or "NiCad" or whatever. Sneaking them into the country can't be any harder than sneaking in the tons of cocaine and heroin that rot our cities from the core. Sell them via word of mouth, or "speakeasy" outlets on the internet for those in the know. Get them into enough cars that people start to notice if they're paying attention. If nothing else, do it for R&D purposes to develop appropriate platforms for the day when the patents expire.
As they say, the free market and black market are one in the same.
I know a dude that was able to obtain Ovonic 85 AH 13.2 V NiMH batteries from junked S10 EVs. But they'll still fetch a pretty penny, and it may be wise not to mention any details on a public forum. If there's still some left by the time I have the cash, I'm getting a set for the GT6. They will basically last for life.
Quote:
Turn the trial into a circus, Abbie Hoffman style (remember him? 1960s radical with a taste for humorous tactics).
Revolution for the Hell of It, steal This Book, and other great works?
That's one crazy shithead. I've been a huge fan since childhood.
Quote:
Or we could just sit on our hands and wit the f---ers out, because their patent will expire in 7 years, and then Panasonic will start making these things in enormous quantity at low cost (as they were about to do before Cobasys screwed 'em) and it's game over we win.
By then, the long emergency will have likely started years earlier, and it will be too late.
Quote:
Yo TC, Dumb Question department: What does it take to get 35 to 40 miles per hour, 100 mile range, and decent hill climbing ability? Could you compare that to the specs of some of the city/highway vehicles you're describing? What I'm thinking of here is a sturdy rural workhorse vehicle, the electric equivalent of a Citroen 2CV. Max 4 passengers with very little cargo, or 2 passengers plus fold down the rear seat for lots of cargo.
You'd want a vehicle with about 40-50% of its weight in batteries, assuming it's around 2,000 pounds. This assumes ~80% efficient DC motor and controller combo.
Doable for a few grand if you're willing to make compromises. If you want PWM controllers, PFC chargers, you won't have a low price(< $5,000) without mass production.
Quote:
Also what would it take to build a higher-range battery pack for a Zap Xebra, for example 100 mile range at 30 miles per hour?
The current Xebra weighs 1,800 lbs, has a battery pack rated at 72V nominal(six 12V AGMs), 100 AH at the 20 hr rate. I don't know the specific type of battery used, but if I had to make a guess, I'd say each one weighs in at about 65 lbs.
That's a 390 pound pack.
The current Xebra gets about 30 miles range?
You'd need about an 800 pound pack. Say, two strings of 84V for a pack of 14 batteries. This dual string will lower the current draw, and thereby extend usable capacity due to Peukert's effect. So the range increase will not be proportional, but in fact more than that.
Problem is, you probably can't fit all that in a Zebra without taking out the back seats or going over GVWR. It wasn't designed for such range. It was dsigned deliberately to be a short range commuter. Les batteries mean less structural requirements mean it's cheaper to build in low quantities. _________________ The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars viable since late 1990s. Politics the prob
Toe, what about the temperature control needed with the Ovonics, (and I assume the Panasonic equivalents)? I've read that GM had to have A/C for the battery pack to keep them from overheating and losing capacity, though I don't remember reading that about the RAV4. How sensitive are they to temperature extremes? Would they do better in a cooler climate, or do they have problems in the cold as well as heat? _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
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