How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Troyboy1208 wrote:
nth as a science teacher i have to disagree with you. The biggest problem is resistance. Simply put water is five times as dense as air. Therefore the resistance is much greater. Water is also noncompressable which means it has to be moved out of the way. Momentum is another problem. If you have a train and aboat that weight equilvalent amounts and get each up to 20 mph and turn the engines off i am willing to bet the train will go much further. Try walking in a pool and walking on dry ground. The water "pushes back" more than the air.
Hrm... I am not a mechanical engineer nor a physics expert, so I am not going to argue with you on why water barge is more efficient. I think it has something to do with water able to support weight.
Anyways, the facts are that barge are more efficient. Don't trust my words as I know jack crap about this. I just based it on other experts.
Figure showing number of ton miles per gallon
I got that info from this article:
arc.gov
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Thanks, Airline Pilot, for keeping track of this. I keep checking back, just to keep updated. I have a few relatives who depend on air travel for their jobs, and I've warned them about peak oil, so I'm trying to keep an eye on the situation for them.
Does anybody have any info on how the 1970s oil shocks played out in the airline industry? Just to get an idea of the possibilities.
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Perhaps our science teacher or others espousing the efficiency of airtravel could let us know what energy is expended lifting mass 35,000 feet? Or accelerating rapidly to 600mph?
And don't forget that for millennia people have been traveling by boat using wind power (and of course good ol' slave power when the breeze dies down ).
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
This is interesting to me, as my husband works for a company that supplies aircraft with an essential part. At different conferences he's been to this year, the big boys are cranking up production on really huge aircraft, like Airbus's big ones that landed in the US last month. Boeing, too. This will all be very interesting!
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3334 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
AirlinePilot wrote:
This last week national average for jet fuel is up 5 cents from 2.03 to 2.08. Every penny is huge in terms of cost to airlines.
Avgas seems to be hovering around 4.16 for now.
Quote:
Boeing 757-200 Technical Specifications - Printer-Friendly Version. ... Maximum Fuel Capacity, 11489 gal (43490 l).
Lets see at 5 cents per gallon that would be $574.45 per full fill up. Doesn't take long before those commuter airlines will be going broke or making major schedual reductions. Flying full already seems more important than customer service, I can't see this making things any better. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Airline pilot since you are inside the industry do airlines buy their fuel as a contract? Do they negotiate the price and get a wholesale discount? Or are airlines forced to buy the fuel like everyone else and are subject to daily price fluctuations?
Joined: Apr 05, 2005 Posts: 2349 Location: South of Atlanta
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
We get fuel at contract for the hubs I believe, but when we fly to other destinations we have to buy it locally. Florida is really ugly on the fuel tax so we actually "tanker" fuel. We can frequently haul more than we need reducing what we have to buy away from the hubs. The problem with that is if your heavier due to the increased fuel load, it actually costs you slightly more fuel to do that. At the heavier weights it takes more fuel burned to go the same distance. Not a lot, but its measurable.
The airlines have been hedging fuel also but as of the last year or so its very limited. We actually lost a bunch of money last year due to the large price drop in crude. Sometimes its a tough game to play. Unfortunately they didnt ask me!
Joined: Apr 05, 2005 Posts: 2349 Location: South of Atlanta
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Some good news! Jet fuel nat. avg. is back to 2.03 and Avgas remains stable at 4.16. I guess the demand numbers are fairly steady for these right now. I am guessing that might change though as it may become an issue for refineries prioritizing which fuels to make. Gasoline has a much bigger immediate impact economically and politically.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5353 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Quote:
High Spreads For US Distillates Attract Imported Supplies
High differentials for middle distillates signify a shortage: a market screaming for imports. Record-high spreads for both jet fuel and ultra-low-sulfur diesel in the US reflect the aftereffects of the switch to ultra-low-sulfur diesel, which took place in the second half of last year. US reliance on jet fuel imports has deepened. That trend is likely to continue so long as US refiners are not producing enough middle distillate molecules due to various pressures. (Monday, April 30, 2007)
Jet Fuel Intelligence
subscription required _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Joined: Mar 28, 2007 Posts: 337 Location: Cambs., UK
Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
JP-8 is a kerosene derivative, so yes, I presume they're linked quite a bit. _________________ "Nothing survives. Not your parents. Not your children. Not even stars."
-Pinbacker, Sunshine
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