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Plantagenet
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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"There is no difference between the denial of the Holocaust and the denial of the crimes of Soviet communism. This story must be told in the same detailed way as was the story of the Holocaust. It's important to remember so that the millions killed by communism and the brave people who fought against it didn't do so in vain. Mr. Putin's ideas for Europe make this a pressing task."
Mr. Laar (former prime minister of Estonia).
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FreakOil
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Joined: Mar 04, 2007
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Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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My Russian friend refers to Estonia as SStonia.
Anyway, Estonia was an independent, democratic nation between World War I and World War II, then it was taken over by Germany before being liberated by the Soviets. The Soviets then killed, imprisoned and exiled thousands of Estonians.
(Once upon a time on a night train trip from Tallinn to Moscow, I actually befriended - or, more accurately, shared a bottle of tequila with - a couple of Estonian sound technicians who were traveling onward to Siberia to install the audio system in a disco in Siberia populated mainly by the descendants of exiled Estonians.)
I say, keep the monument as a testament to the muddled nature of any country's historical narrative, but put up a bigger monument nearby with a plaque explaining in certain terms the atrocities committed by the Soviets.
As an aside, the Finns have a monument in Helsinki to Alexander II. |
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Gideon
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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Montequest is a certified asshole.
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Last edited by Gideon on Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Plantagenet
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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| Gideon wrote: | | I think that there has been an active attempt to exagerate the number of Jewish dead in WWII to curry sypathy and to control criticism of Jews, Israel, and Zionism. |
I don't see how the Holocaust can be disputed. The German police state kept meticulous records of their murderous activities in Germany and in the countries they occupied in WWII. |
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Plantagenet
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Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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| FreakOil wrote: | | Estonia was an independent, democratic nation between World War I and World War II, then it was taken over by Germany before being liberated by the Soviets. |
Actually, Estonia was invaded by the Soviets PRIOR to the Nazi invasion. Remember the USSR and Nazi Germany were allies after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and jointly invaded Poland. The Germans then invaded France and Belgium while the Russians went after Estonia, Finland, etc.
It also wasn't "liberated" by the Soviets. The Soviets came into Estonia after the Estonians had pushed the Germans out themselves. The Russians proceeded to arrest the Estonian government and forcibly incorporate Estonia into the USSR.
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Gideon
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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Montequest is a certified asshole.
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Last edited by Gideon on Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Plantagenet
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Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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| Gideon wrote: | if you tell me, or anybody else, that the disputation of the official account of WWII's killing of Jews is a crime, then I have a huge free speech issue with that.
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Some European countries have criminalized Holocaust denial. The US, with its deeply ingrained free speech tradition and the constitutional protections for free speech, has not.
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dissident
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Joined: Apr 08, 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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Plantagenet,
So the crimes of the Soviets, which resulted in the deaths of millions of Russians, are an excuse for Estonian nazionalists to deprive over 25% of Estonia's population of their human rights? For example the right to vote.
Oh, don't give me that BS line that ethnic Russians are residual occupants in Estonia. Aside from the fact that ethnic Russians lived in Estonia before communism and before WWII, NATO does not mind the fact that Kosovo's Albanian majority is the result genocide and ethnic cleansing of Serbs during WWII and illegal migration from Albania after the war.
It's not just a monument it is also a grave. Nobody is stopping Estonia from, in addition to staging its regular SS veterans parades, putting up a massive monument to Soviet oppression. |
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Gideon
Light Sweet Crude
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Joined: Aug 29, 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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Montequest is a certified asshole.
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Chief of Asshole Certification
Last edited by Gideon on Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Micki
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Dec 07, 2005
Posts: 1857
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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| Quote: | | What they have criminalized is free speech. |
That is correct.
You can get jail for openly questioning the holocaust.
Like that Canadian revisionist historian, who's name I now forgot.
+ Mein Kampf, a freaking book!, is prohibited in several countries, amongst other Austria.
I am just amazed at the undemocratic behaviour of some of the democratic nations.
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Plantagenet
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Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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| dissident wrote: | | So the crimes of the Soviets, which resulted in the deaths of millions of Russians, are an excuse for Estonian nazionalists to deprive over 25% of Estonia's population of their human rights? For example the right to vote. |
The transfer of the Soviet statue and bodies from a busy street to a military cemetary doesn't deprive anyone of the right to vote.
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Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 1334
Location: Somewhere there
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Russians protest as Estonians remove Russian monument |
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| dissident wrote: | | So the crimes of the Soviets, which resulted in the deaths of millions of Russians, are an excuse for Estonian nazionalists to deprive over 25% of Estonia's population of their human rights? For example the right to vote. |
Why in the world non-citizens should have a right to vote? They DONT WANT to be Estonian citizens, or too lazy/stupid to do it. Its not that hard to learn a language if you have lived there all your lifetime. And if you dont even want to bother learning the language why Estonians should care about your opinion?
| dissident wrote: |
Oh, don't give me that BS line that ethnic Russians are residual occupants in Estonia. Aside from the fact that ethnic Russians lived in Estonia before communism and before WWII, NATO does not mind the fact that Kosovo's Albanian majority is the result genocide and ethnic cleansing of Serbs during WWII and illegal migration from Albania after the war. |
Those Russians who lived in Estonia before Soviet occupation in 1940 DO have a right for citizenship without any language tests or anything else. Same goes for their kids and grandkids.
All other Russians are residual occupants.
What does Estonia has to do with Kosovo?
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