Is the solution to America's energy needs as simple as a trip to the beach?
The idea is a fascinating one as a Florida man searching for a cancer cure may have stumbled onto a virtually limitless source of energy: salt water.
John Kanzius, 63, is a broadcast engineer who formerly owned several TV and radio stations, before retiring in Sanibel Island, Fla.
...
Kanzius discovered his machine could do what some may have thought was impossible: making water burn.
"On our way to try to do desalinization, we came up with something that burns, and it looks in this case that salt water perhaps could be used as a fuel to replace the carbon footsteps that we've been using all these years, i.e., fossil fuels," Kanzius said.
The possible ramifications of the discovery are almost mind-boggling, as http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55934#
cars could be fueled by salt water instead of gasoline, hydroelectric plants could be built along the shore, and homes could be heated without worrying about supplies of oil.
"It doesn't have to be ocean salt water," Kanzius said. "It burns just as well when we add salt to tap water."
Kanzius has partnered with Charles Rutkowski, general manager of Industrial Sales and Manufacturing, a Millcreek, Pa., company that builds the radio-wave generators.
"I've done this [burning experiment] countless times and it still amazes me," Rutkowski told the Erie Times-News. "Here we are paying $3 a gallon for gas, and this is a device that seems to turn salt water into an alternative fuel." ...
Ok, I was working out in the gym the other day and chatting with an acquaintence of mine between sets. The subject of gas prices came up, one thing led to another and before you know it, I was explaining all about Peak Oil.
"Not so fast", said my friend, and he directed to me to some website that told about some guy who directed radio waves at salt water and produced a flame. "We could just adapt our cars to burn salt water", said he. And he wouldn't even listen to my protests about energy having to come from somewhere. Needless to say, I didn't bother tracking down his info.
But, lo, here's the story on Rense. So what's up with it? who has heard about it before? _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Last edited by Carlhole on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:16 am; edited 3 times in total
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
Oops, looks like the link at WorldNetDaily already has the detractions that the Rense version omitted.
Still... strange that radio waves could split a water molecule with the mere addition of a little salt. Hmmm. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
I'd say it's got a 95% chance of just being BS. Heat obviously doesn't convert water into hydrogen. It converts water into steam. *IF* it is somehow true, then the radio waves are setting up enough of an electric current in the water to produce electrolysis.
This sort of ability to separate compounds into their constituent ions is where "ionizing radiation" (aka radioactivity) gets it's name.
Regardless, there is absolutely no way this is an energy source. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
They played his device on TV. It does produce a flame from water. However it does this by having a very large microwave beam energy into the water in a very specific manner. (which he has not revealed)
From that video, we can conclude at least a 4(Na+) + (O2) => 2Na2O or (Na+) + (O^2-) => Na2O reaction. The yellow of the Sodium gives it away. That will obviously free up some hydrogen so we also have a 2H2 + O2 => 2H2O reaction in there as well.
As for EROEI, no one knows. I'd bet it would be negative as it is a super simple thing for him to prove positive. (Calorimeter Energy - Energy used by microwave, both are easy to set up and measure)
My question is if it IS positive with an EROEI of 1.0000000001, will we burn the entire ocean to fuel our civilization?
I hope he gets a patent or publishes a peer reviewed paper. _________________ EntropyFails
"Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water Microwave (was Saved!)
The second law of thermodynamics - it isn't just a good idea, it's the law.
OK, what's going to happen. We send energy into some molecules. The binding energy of those molecules must be overcome. Now we have separate atoms, which can recombine.
There cannot be a net energy gain. Simply cannot.
NaCl is very stable. H2O is, likewise, stable because they produce a lot of energy when the atoms get together. Rip them apart, and it takes energy. Let them recombine, and you get the energy back, less inefficiencies. Entropy increases. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water Microwave (was Saved!)
John Kanzius discovered that his radio frequency generator could release the oxygen and hydrogen from saltwater and create an incredibly intense flame.
You know, this would be a simple enough experiment for someone here on the board to try to duplicate. It's frustrating that they don't mention the input energy versus the output energy.
"Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information.
"Actually there are smart individuals who have posted on different web sited and actually have a pretty good idea of what is happening."
June 01, 2007
"I am in the process of redesigning the electronics for the saltwater as to see what efficiency we can achieve.
"Why does everyone think this is a form of electrolysis?
"Some scientists who have made comments on certain web sites actually understand the mechanism of action.
"Regarding moving this forward, I want to see what are the best results we can achieve with joules in vs joules out. A chemist in Houston whom I know is going to be doing a couple of things for me this weekend." -- John Kanzius (June 01, 2007)
How it Works
Kanzius is not publicly disclosing the mechanism of action at this time.
He says that the process would not be considered a form of electrolysis.
"It has nothing in common with the Rife concept except the word radio waves....He was supposedly looking for resonant frequencies of the cells themselves. This is nanoparticle technology. The nanoparticles are relatively new in the science and medical world. Gold nanoparticles and carbon nanotubes are the molecules that enter the cancer cells to be thermally destroyed by the non-invasive radio waves..The frequencies themselves are not even close..." (May 27, 2007)
"It does take much sodium to discolor the flame. We have measured the before and after burns and very little sodium has been expended." (May 29, 2007)
"What burns at a temperature of over 1700 C? [Knowing the answer to that question] might take some of the guess work out of the equation." (May 29, 2007)
"PLASMA does and the flame seem to have an electrical quality." -- Jerome E. Goodwin Sr. (May 29, 2007)
On June 2, 2007, 'KightTechnologies' wrote:
"Yes that's how lasers, shielding, and ion winds are created, plasma is dark matter. Just like you slam a ton of particles into a piece of copper at a high rate of speed to make 1 particle of antimatter. Plasma is used in high energy weapons for lasers and pulse based stun weapons. Plasma can wrap around an object in such a way it's an air tight seal, and also make objects invisible to radar by the way radar signals are handled.
"A UV laser binds particles together creating a focused circuit and plasma particles come together to complete the highly conductive circuit, once voltage is applied the current travels along that concentrated path and grounds it's destination. The particles that are acelerated in any given direction apply heavy force and increase distance becoming physical kenetic energy. The higher the voltage and conductivity the output travels a longer distance and the beam burns like lightning or the sun.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
entropyfails wrote:
As for EROEI, no one knows.
Any college freshman physics student can do a proof to show that the EROEI has to be less than one. I am amazed that the television stations would let such tripe on the air. There is no energy source in this scheme. Electricity makes radio waves. Radio waves decompose salt water into it's constituents. Fire recombines those components to make salt water. The amount of energy released by the fire will IS the amount of energy input as electricity minus the losses due to inefficiency. This is just a complicated and probably less efficient alternative to hydrolysis. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
smallpoxgirl wrote:
entropyfails wrote:
As for EROEI, no one knows.
Any college freshman physics student can do a proof to show that the EROEI has to be less than one. I am amazed that the television stations would let such tripe on the air. There is no energy source in this scheme. Electricity makes radio waves. Radio waves decompose salt water into it's constituents. Fire recombines those components to make salt water. The amount of energy released by the fire will IS the amount of energy input as electricity minus the losses due to inefficiency. This is just a complicated and probably less efficient alternative to hydrolysis.
Well, apparently there are a whole bunch of discussion groups on this subject already and a scientific eyeballs are on it too.
He's claiming: "Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information. "
Tripe was my impression too. And I wouldn't be surprised if it is. But I can't help but notice that there is alot of curious attention being given this by reputable types.
It seems like such a simple scientific observation - the effect of radio waves on salt water - that I can't help but wonder why I haven't heard of it before. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Any college freshman physics student can do a proof to show that the EROEI has to be less than one.
Yeah I had not realized that he was claiming greater than unity until now. The previous EROEI cites was 76%. My greater than unity comment was a hypothetical question.
John Kanzius seems to have gone into hyper-protective mode now with his claims of greater than unity and his proclaimed need to "embargo information". We've seen this countless times as soon as someone starts to seriously look into a kook's claims. It's also telling that he doesn't have a website or email address. _________________ EntropyFails
"Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
entropyfails wrote:
John Kanzius seems to have gone into hyper-protective mode now with his claims of greater than unity and his proclaimed need to "embargo information". We've seen this countless times as soon as someone starts to seriously look into a kook's claims. It's also telling that he doesn't have a website or email address.
My, what impressively curious minds you people have! Isn't anyone wondering what exactly is taking place here?
Who cares if the claim of it's being an energy source is unsubstantiated and probably false. I mean, assuming that the reporter in the news video was not the victim of some sort of magician's trick, it sure looked like hydrogen was being produced from salt water ostensibly bombarded with radio waves. Has anyone heard of this before? That's what makes it interesting.
And also, according to the news video, engineers have looked at this. I guess we have to take the reporter's word for it that he actually substantiated the Erie engineering firm which was measuring the energy released. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Microwave Energy Source?
UMMM,
There's already 1 or 2 threads floating around here on this exact subject!
I'm too lazy to look for them right now and link them.
There is no farking way this is energy positive!
Unless of course,everything we know about physics is completely wrong.
My guess,as I stated in another thread,is that he's using resonance to break down calcium/magnesium salts which then react with water to liberate (combustible)hydroxide.
Again,there is no way in hell this is energy positive!
OTOH,if the energy needed comes from one of those magical wall outlet/socket thingies(you know - plug ins)that produce infinate amounts of energy from nowhere,then it might just work! _________________ "Switzerland is small and neutral.We need to be more like Germany,ambitious and misunderstood!" Futurama
"As for the dieoff of 5E+09 people - not a problem, so long as I'm not one of them." Jack
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
Carlhole wrote:
He's claiming: "Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information. "
It seems like such a simple scientific observation - the effect of radio waves on salt water - that I can't help but wonder why I haven't heard of it before.
because if it was true he has created a machine that breaks the laws of conservation..and is adding energy/mass to the universe out of nowhere...
what he ought to do is set up these processes in series so the output generates more Radio EM and zaps more salt water...exponential growth and what have you will so increase the net energy in the universe by infinity..as the output also produces water which we can condense recycle back into the stirling engines and EM target vessel providing the EM output and so creates a perpetual cycle outputting infinite amounts of energy..
we all get one.... with my ration of infinite energy I'm going to re-run every possible quantum option from the big bang onwards, raise the dead and promote myself to god.....
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
mididoctors wrote:
Carlhole wrote:
He's claiming: "Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information. "
It seems like such a simple scientific observation - the effect of radio waves on salt water - that I can't help but wonder why I haven't heard of it before.
because if it was true he has created a machine that breaks the laws of conservation..and is adding energy/mass to the universe out of nowhere...
Look, people, before the mods changed the title of my thread, I had called it "Saved, I tell ya! Saved!!!". Quite sarcastically, I assure you.
I said at the beginning of the thread - "Energy has got to come from somewhere". I know that! Jesus.
But the reporter in the video had been shown a test tube full of seawater that when (ostensibly) bombarded with radio waves produced a rather large flame!
What is interesting and notable here is not whether this is a new energy source defying the laws of physics. What is interesting is the farking robust flame coming out of a test tube full of seawater by a means not previously known.
Let's just assume from now on that the energy in is greater than the energy out since that remains to be seen and there's no way for us to know. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
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