I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
So I'm 20 years old now, if you don't know. Planning on being a petroleum engineer initially and then, after more studying, some type of other engineer. The reason for petro engineering is that it's very lucrative and I'd like to have some money before the collapse begins and I want to make sure that I have a job.
The reason for the money is that I like civilization as it is. I like electricity, taking a hot shower, electronics, my computer, rapid (20+ mph) transportation, etc. So basically, I wanna be able to have enough money to build from scratch or buy everything that is sustainable and useful.
Plot of land - Enough for several hundred people. Enough to rotate the farms so I won't destroy the land after a generation.
Homes - Probably a few large houses. Again, enough for several hundred people
Water collection and storage facilities - 10,000-100,000 gallon storage capacity. Filtration. Desalinization.
Food storage - Enough for a significant period of time in case of drought, etc.
Fences and defenses - Machines to rapidly build deep trenches, fences and other defenses.
Food - I'm planning on mostly staple crops if possible: corn, beans, wheat, barley, veggies and fruit. A limited amount of cattle, sheep, goats, chickens and any other animals that may be needed to guard said animals.
Electricity production - Wind and solar will be the main sources. I hope on having enough forest to use for fuel in emergencies.
Batteries - Enough to hold many hundred, possibly thousand, kWh's. Not exactly sure how much they hold. Looking for devices that can last for a long time or be self-made.
So how much land should I be looking at getting, where should it be, and what kind of overall cost of this project?
I plan on reading the rest of the posts on Planning threads to get specifics on what I should get etc, but I was hoping to just get a good estimate of what I should be saving up. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Joined: Aug 04, 2005 Posts: 429 Location: Traded the man in front of the tank for a cat playing the banjo
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
You want a lot, maybe should consider to move to a poorer country where things are cheaper than in the US.
Land and homes for over 100 people? With hot showers, electricity and rapid transportation? Maybe you should just invest in a couple of VR goggles.
If you are serious I'd say you'll need over a million bucks, if you can make that before TSHTF... _________________ When someone interprets as derogatory almost anything that is said about him (or about groups with whom he identifies) we conclude that he has inferiority feelings or low self-esteem.
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Ballpark figure would be $10 million USD. Probably more like $15 million. You're talking about starting a town from scratch, basically. The land you need depends on how self-sufficient you want to be. A family of 4 can probably feed itself on 5 acres, but that doesn't leave room for a wood lot or most grain/staple crops. Figure 40 acres per family to give yourself some room. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Quote:
With hot showers, electricity and rapid transportation?
Hot water and electricity are no big deal. Solar and wind can supply both. As for "rapid" transportation, I mean something along the lines of electric cars (powered by wind/solar) or something.
Quote:
You want a lot, maybe should consider to move to a poorer country where things are cheaper than in the US.
I was planning on around a million plus. Maybe up to 5. That's really no problem long term. I obviously don't want to build this tomorrow and have all of it completed by the end of the week.
I graduate in 2 years. After that, I'll be making 50-100k a year depending. I can live cheaply (10 k/year) so the rest(40-90k) would be going into the land.
After 1 year: buy some of the land (50%?).
After 2: buy some more and start building my home.
After 3: Have wind mills and solar panels installed.
Etc. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Quote:
The land you need depends on how self-sufficient you want to be.
Long term, completely.
Quote:
You're talking about starting a town from scratch, basically.
You say that like it's a bad thing; like the towns we have now are just oh so wonderfully designed and built.
So $15 million. I have a little less than $800 in the bank. $14,999,200 to go! Oooh, I found a penny by my feet. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
You might get by a lot cheaper than the ballpark numbers I'm throwing out, but let's assume you have 50 families of 4 people each. They each need 40 acres of land - a mix of woodlot and farmland. That's 2000 acres of land. Even at a relatively cheap $1000/acre, that's 2 mil.
I'd guess another $3-$5 million for housing and services (water, elect, roads, etc.) for that many people.
Having recently purchased an old farmhouse and started fixing it up while also starting a small farming operation, I can tell you that this stuff gets expensive fast. It apparently costs alot to live this free!
You might look into the ecovillages and other sustainable communities out there to see how they're financing things. The ecovillages have a bad rap around here, but they and the communes (The Farm in Tennessee, etc) are the only ones around to study. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Quote:
It apparently costs alot to live this free!
Well, we've been told plenty of times that freedom isn't free.
Quote:
Having recently purchased an old farmhouse and started fixing it up while also starting a small farming operation, I can tell you that this stuff gets expensive fast.
But imagine you have your piece of farmland, and your only job is farming that land and selling back extra electricity. You have no federal taxes to pay, not much anyway (if you decide to pay in the future). Most of what you pay in taxes is local and state, so not that much. So it may be expensive in the short term, but it will pay off dearly, even if we don't have PO coming for a couple of decades.
$5-7 mil is not much of a problem. I'll just start off with small purchases for myself. If I find others that want to come live with me, then that's less of a financial burden on me and I end up only spending up to $2 mil for a smaller number of people. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Another question is: What type of land? Looking at Landandfarm.com, there are many different types (duh). Pasture, undeveloped, permanent, row crops, forest, etc. Permanent crops would be the best option since the crops are there naturally, right? _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
RonMN wrote:
Don't forget that the more land/crops you have...the more you'll have to defend.
I'll be ready. I plan on loading up on defenses (as noted above) as well as all kinds of weapons (sniper, pistols, semi-auto, auto), explosives (you never know) and a few other things.
One plot of land, really nice, that I saw was surrounding, at least partially, by mountains. I'll look for plots with natural features that are conducive to defense. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Ok, at 20 years old you sound like a fairly intelligent guy. Seeing that you're in Durham, I'm wondering if you're at Duke.
Now, with the amount of money you're talking about, I seriously think you may be better off investing heavily in oil and commodity assets, and setting aside a smaller portion for a sustainable plot of land. That is assuming you truly believe in a rapid, dramatic, violent collapse of the US economy and modern monetary system...
This forum is notorious for heading from point A to point Z, with virtually nothing in between. Despite all the problems and distortions with the current financial system, do you truly, hoinestly believe that we will be living a survivalist lifestyle within 5, 10, 20 years? People often discuss a second Great Depression on here - you may want to read up on how many millionaires were created during this periood by playing it correctly.
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Quote:
Seeing that you're in Durham, I'm wondering if you're at Duke.
Nope
Quote:
That is assuming you truly believe in a rapid, dramatic, violent collapse of the US economy and modern monetary system...
I don't think it will be as rapid as the GD unless it is orchestrated. That is why I think I can spread the building out over a decade or two without being in too much of a pinch.
And I will try to get into investments so that I'm protected either way. As soon as I start bringing in large amounts of cash, I'll start to divert them to commodities (gold, silver, nickel, copper) first and then into oil and such. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
For being a 'smart guy' you seem to be forgetting about some fairly simple things like, income taxes.
Quote:
I graduate in 2 years. After that, I'll be making 50-100k a year depending. I can live cheaply (10 k/year) so the rest(40-90k) would be going into the land.
That 40-90k you think you have left over is really more like half that.
Also, I'm not sure where in the country you live, but 10k a year is really not a whole lot of money in a whole lot of places where you are gonna be able to make 100k a year.
I'm not saying living on 10k can't be done, but typically those places aren't going to be paying you a premium income like that. As a specific example, I work in DC right now, and I make a premium salary because this area is the third most expensively prices area in the country (behind SF and NYC). If you go 90 miles north and west into the Apalachian mountains of WV, the salary for my exact same job drops by over half.
Could I live in the DC area on 10k a year? No chance.
Could I live in the mountains of WV for 10k a year...yes, probably, albiet extremely frugally.
But doing that would cut my gross income by half (and don't forget those taxes). And thats assuming I'm not paying for things like healthcare, or perscriptions if I get sick, or injured, or ANY comforts at all (a life, seeing family who might live farther away, dating?), transportation to my job, etc.
What you are talking about is going to cost a phenominal amount of money. You are going to find all kinds of hidden costs in the building of the homes and the tending of the land (tractors ain't cheap, and oops, that well had to be dug twice as deep as we thought, etc).
I respect your plan, but you will not be able to do this by yourself in anything like a reasonable amount of time unless maybe you are thinking of building in a 3rd world country. But that has all kinds of neat little traps and tricks of its own. (like finding a 100k a year job in a 3rd world country, dealing with local corruption, being an 'outsider')
Also, since the timeline will get stretched out, you'll have to worry about inflation diluting your purchasing power. You can probably offset that with smart investments, but nothing is without risk (or everyone would be billionaires).
I think your best best to achieve a goal like this would be to form some kind of purchasing cooperative, or eco village style development.
Check out things like www.broomgrass.com for just such a development, and then check out how much they are charging people to get in there.
I wish you luck, but unless you think you have the better part of a generation to get this done, its not gonna happen on a 100k a year salary no matter how cheaply you live once you factor in things like taxes, risky investments, and actually having a life during those 20 or so years.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5664 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
brobak, petroleum engineers who work outside the US can make a lot of money that isn't all taxed. And they can live really cheaply, too. I think that part of his plan may be realistic, actually. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13065 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: How much to save up for EVERTHING?
Mekrob, if you're planning to invest in an intentional community, I suggest you read "Creating a Life Together" by Diana Leafe Christian, which studies successful ICs and some unsuccessful ones, and tells how to proceed in a way which will help insure success. It might help you refine your planning strategy to read this book. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
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