Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
There will be no anarchy immediately after TSHTF.
Authoritarian governments and their dogs (police, military, contracted security) will brutalize general population into submission if need arise and we will run business like Saddams Iraq did or like NK or Libya does right now.
And if there will be any Waco, air-to-surface missile will deal with it swiftly.
This situation will last for decades before slow descent into anarchy or transition into new feudal system.
Atomic war may speed it up.
All citizens rights (including a right to take legal action against authorities) will be taken away due to emergency, so police will feel free to carry on it's job.
There are also plenty of sociopaths/psychopats in armed services, so they will show no mercy...
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6607 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
Such a scenario could never unfold in the US, EnergyUnlimited. First of all, our government is far too incompetent to exert Orwellian-type control of the entire population. It can't even control the Iraqis or the Afghans in the way you describe; how is it going to do it to its own population?? Second, it lacks the resources, both now and especially in the future. Third, there are millions of guns in private hands, and if their owners are threatened, bullied, and run over in the extreme manner you describe, those guns will speak. Personally, I'd much rather go down fighting than submit to "brutalization into submission."
There will be anarchy, a collapse of the government (if it happened in the USSR, it can happen anywhere), and ultimately a splintering of the North American landmass into much smaller and weaker political units, loosely governed in some way perhaps, as by warlords. All accompanied by a gigantic decline in population. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
EnergyUnlimited;
I don't think so.
As Hieneken said, our govn is far, far too grossly incompetent for such a task.
Two, when our fiat currency dies a horrible death (from any number of causes), as Kunstler says, "the govn will be lucky to answer the phones".
Three, the US is a huge nation with 300 million people and with way more than 300 million guns owned by the people. The US is not England or other European countries that has prostrated itself to it's govn by giving up it's right to own guns. The military and law enforcement agencies combined simply aren't anywhere's big enough to impose martial law throughout the land. To boot there's probably 5 to 10 % of those govn henchmen who have a conscience and won't shoot at it's own citizens.
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
I would bet on a "great event" coming along that everything will pivot off of. The economy will permanently change, it will usher in global "hard times", war will erupt. The important infrastructure of the country will be reconfigured, protected and policed. Control of vital resources will become more centralized. Parts of the country with little valuble to offer will degenerate. The sheep will submit themselves to being big brothered under the illusion of safety. It will be a time of change and the changes will be funded in large part by the great debt a new war will generate, perhaps under a new currency. _________________ Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destory health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality.
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
mmasters wrote:
I would bet on a "great event" coming along that everything will pivot off of. The economy will permanently change, it will usher in global "hard times", war will erupt. The important infrastructure of the country will be reconfigured, protected and policed. Control of vital resources will become more centralized. Parts of the country with little valuble to offer will degenerate. The sheep will submit themselves to being big brothered under the illusion of safety. It will be a time of change and the changes will be funded in large part by the great debt a new war will generate, perhaps under a new currency.
That is something what I am concerned about.
Peoples will accept anything for a daily plate of soup, if it is hard to get.
And those who rebel will be branded as unpatriotic enemies of nation and dealt with accordingly.
Authoritarian rule will roll across a nation and very few will attept to challenge it.
In fact sheeple will demand such rule, so even incompetent government will manage...
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
Quote:
We're in the real country. Us folks will eat real well. No. I was talking about the Country Estate, Ranchette, and Farmette crowd. They'll have to move to the barracks.
You may have been joking about barracks, but since people often mention Halliburton camps, I would ask: where is the gov't going to get the resources to build barracks for millions of people and transport food to all of them? There is a video on LATOC - BBC 1960s dramatization of nuclear war. Diplomatic tensions rise, people in target cities were evacuated to the surrounding towns. Families in those small towns were forced to take them into their homes and feed them. Why would the government build barracks when your place in the country has plenty of floor space to sleep on and lots of all that yummy food you mentioned.
I think the gov't probably will not try to move people out of their homes, but before they build barracks for millions, does anyone think they would try the above approach? Or, will they look around for "unproductive" land on public and private property and force destitute people to settle there and grow food?
If any of that happens, you better have already accepted into your home and land good people that you like, or you might be forced to have spoiled suburbanites sleeping in your halls and eating your food.
Perhaps more likely is destitute people will move to farms of all sizes to be laborers or serfs. What's that game when 10 people all run and try to get a seat in 9 chairs? There could be a mass migration of people to stable, food-producing areas, and the last one to get there is farked.
I know some will say that the gov't will not be strong enough or competent enough to organize such a a mass resettlement to rural areas. That's probably true. However, those of you with land and farms, when your friends and family, and their extended families show up at your gates with starving crying kids, what are you going to do?
Joined: May 07, 2007 Posts: 434 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
Jellric wrote:
I did see quite a few home-made signs such as "You loot. We shoot." "Don't come down this street unless you live in this neighborhood."
Seems alot like the "sniper tower effect" to me. _________________ "That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top, well I say, <censored by peakoil.com> floats"
Joined: May 07, 2007 Posts: 434 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:46 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
mmasters wrote:
I would bet on a "great event" coming along that everything will pivot off of. The economy will permanently change, it will usher in global "hard times", war will erupt. The important infrastructure of the country will be reconfigured, protected and policed. Control of vital resources will become more centralized. Parts of the country with little valuble to offer will degenerate. The sheep will submit themselves to being big brothered under the illusion of safety. It will be a time of change and the changes will be funded in large part by the great debt a new war will generate, perhaps under a new currency.
That is something what I am concerned about.
Peoples will accept anything for a daily plate of soup, if it is hard to get.
And those who rebel will be branded as unpatriotic enemies of nation and dealt with accordingly.
Authoritarian rule will roll across a nation and very few will attept to challenge it.
In fact sheeple will demand such rule, so even incompetent government will manage...
If this were to come to pass, hopefully it will not go as far as the majority of the population being weighed, measured, photographed and an ID bracelet slapped around ones wrist. Oh, I forgot, they basically do that now. _________________ "That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top, well I say, <censored by peakoil.com> floats"
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
Quote:
Perhaps more likely is destitute people will move to farms of all sizes to be laborers or serfs. What's that game when 10 people all run and try to get a seat in 9 chairs? There could be a mass migration of people to stable, food-producing areas, and the last one to get there is farked.
I know some will say that the gov't will not be strong enough or competent enough to organize such a a mass resettlement to rural areas. That's probably true. However, those of you with land and farms, when your friends and family, and their extended families show up at your gates with starving crying kids, what are you going to do?
That is very likely scenario.
Government will probably establish "quotas" of food/other farm products, which they expect from farmers.
Those will depend of land size, locations etc.
They will offer only very little payment for these products, but anyone who uses serf labour or work together with extended family and friends will just manage.
Every farm will have to fulfill quotas and those who fail without a very good reason will be at risk of seizure by government.
Any excess over quota will be left to farmer.
Government will not have to organize resettlement to rural areas.
Town dwellers will help themselve, once their jobs evaporated and there is no future in areas where they live.
Some will manage into serfdom, some others will not.
For the second lot labour camps may be organized (particularly if they have turned to be a troublemakers).
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3894 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
Quote:
You may have been joking about barracks, but since people often mention Halliburton camps, I would ask: where is the gov't going to get the resources to build barracks for millions of people and transport food to all of them?
IMHO,
As for the camps: There are a great many places owned or that could be seized by the government to house people. Old military bases, prisons, abandoned warehouses.. If they needed labor, they've got it (prisoners). There's a brand new prison, somewhere in the west (for the life of me I can't think of its name or where it is-saw it on MSNBC documentary. Claimed it wasn't being used because there was no money for guards, etc) that cost millions and is completely empty. As for food, a) one has to assume that the government would be happy if there were a few million dieoffs, and b) that they would demand that the people do the farming, etc., if they wanted to eat.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6607 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
What you Big Brother fans are forgetting is that Big Brother requires big energy and big bucks.
Neither will be there in sufficient quantity.
The government will go bankrupt and dissolve like any other corporation. There may be other governments, but they will be comparatively Lilliputian. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
I would think of it as a more nefarious big brother lite. It doesn't take a lot of energy to control a feeding tube. _________________ Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destory health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality.
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
Heineken wrote:
What you Big Brother fans are forgetting is that Big Brother requires big energy and big bucks.
Neither will be there in sufficient quantity.
The government will go bankrupt and dissolve like any other corporation. There may be other governments, but they will be comparatively Lilliputian.
1. Many of small but intrusive Lilliputian govs can be as tedious as a big one.
2. You can run such a thing as sustainable military/police if you are determined enough. General population will go with less, but Big Brother will be fed.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6607 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Yeah, but is doomer porn likely?
I'm dubious, EU. Today's highly intrusive, highly powerful Big Government evolved organically with the rest of modern civilization. Both depend on abundant cheap energy, modern transportation systems, and highly specialized labor, among many other things. I think the unraveling of these monolithic features of today's society will cause a profound contraction in the reach and power of government.
As long as there are people there will be hierarchical systems of power and control, obviously. All I'm saying is that, after economic and environmental collapse, the notion of a Big Brotherly level of control becomes unrealistic. We will be going from a state of extreme order to a state of less order and even, in many cases, chaos.
When today's giant nation-states dissolve, there will be no more need for Big Government. It will have no role and no place, and certainly no means. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
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