Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: We'll go down fighting!
It's an increasingly chaotic world, where truth is hidden by competing and conflicting agendas. The rich lord it over the poor and the strong inflict pain on the weak, but we're not giving up. You can beat us, insult us humiliate us, but we're not giving up.
"Die off" is a loaded term and defeatist. It helps nobody, but the oil companies, as it implies that it is hopeless to invest time or money into alternatives.
This is a core issue on this site, but people kind of dance around it. I'd like to see it addressed.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Quote:
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
_________________ It's a cold cold world when a man has to pawn his shoes.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Thank you for helping me make my point, Jack. Just out of curiosity, let's break down the numbers here.
You, no doubt are invested in oil. Seeing as it's somewhat compatible with your philosophy, I can't call you a hypocrite, or even a defeatist, just a misanthropist.
In your estimate, what percentage of environmentalists on this forum, who also like people,(generally speaking), are invested in oil companies? Do you have a take on that, or do you prefer not to comment?
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Jack's position is easy to understand as he is a soulless sociopath... (no offense intended of course).
I would propose to coin a term for those who tout themselves as environmentalists which see the only solution as "die off" which I agree is rather defeatist...
Instead of environmentalist the term would be envrionihilist.
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
gnm wrote:
Jack's position is easy to understand as he is a soulless sociopath... (no offense intended of course).
I would propose to coin a term for those who tout themselves as environmentalists which see the only solution as "die off" which I agree is rather defeatist...
Instead of environmentalist the term would be envrionihilist.
Joined: Mar 18, 2005 Posts: 2627 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
I think the title hits the nail on the head! "We'll go down fighting".
A conflict over limited resources is assured...it will happen because it has always happened. Whether the resource was food, water, energy, land, etc., it didn't matter...it has always resulted in starvation or conflict or both.
So either I survive, and like Jack says...the world will be a more plesant place to live.
Or I go down fighting, and atleast I go down knowing i did all i could (and i'll find comfort in that).
For me, the worst would be to give up without a struggle!!! _________________ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 2884 Location: The Urban Village
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Die-off is loaded, I agree. It sounds like extinction to most people I think. "That species died-off many centuries ago".
What's the opposite of die-off? Die-on? Live-off ?
How about Die-back ? How about simply reduction in population? People die, and new people are born. What the rates are relative to one another is the issue. Any rational person would admit that you can't keep increasing the population forever. Dynamical systems with controls undergoing input always overshoot. Either pure steady-state equilibrium is reached eventually (really never in real systems) or you repeatively over and undershoot.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
dinopello wrote:
Die-off is loaded, I agree. It sounds like extinction to most people I think. "That species died-off many centuries ago".
What's the opposite of die-off? Die-on? Live-off ?
How about Die-back ? How about simply reduction in population? People die, and new people are born. What the rates are relative to one another is the issue. Any rational person would admit that you can't keep increasing the population forever. Dynamical systems with controls undergoing input always overshoot. Either pure steady-state equilibrium is reached eventually (really never in real systems) or you repeatively over and undershoot.
I'll go down living, until the end that is.
Die back? Perhaps. Few would disagree with the gist of your post. "Powerdown" seems an inclusive term that should include powerdown of population, slowly, humanely.
And Jack, I've seen the movie "Idiocracy" so understand some of your sentiments and personally feel paying people with beer and cigarettes to have their tubes tied is a humane way of dealing with that situation.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3642 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Die off....
IMHO, barring nuclear war or multiple pandemics, I think that the die-off will proceed at different speeds.
It will probably be quicker in the larger cities due to lack of food, illness/starvation, and crime, and, slower in littler towns and agricultural areas.
Some of those that survive the initial first year after oil depletion, will probably have figured out how to survive with the basics, but, will then be susceptible to illnesses: brought on by a more frugal lifestyle and medical shortages; brought into the community by those who are homeless/fleeing the cities; and, by insects (mosquitoes, ticks, etc ), and rodents.
I am not sure when, but at some point, the MSM will stop reporting anything about the body counts.
Joined: Mar 18, 2005 Posts: 2627 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
I'm well diversified. Gold/silver, dollars, survival / gardening / camping tools & equipment, books, canned & dry food, ammo, knowledge, tent, gardening & saving heirloom seed, no CC debt (but house not paid off yet)...still looking for farm land with some woods. Still learning how to keep a PMA after all becomes worthless. _________________ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
threadbear wrote:
Thank you for helping me make my point, Jack.
My pleasure. Seriously, when one is discussing things of moral import, a clear contrast is sometimes helpful. Our views seem to contrast.
threadbear wrote:
You, no doubt are invested in oil. Seeing as it's somewhat compatible with your philosophy, I can't call you a hypocrite, or even a defeatist, just a misanthropist.
I prefer sociopath or at least psychopath. But misanthropist does have a nice ring to it.
threadbear wrote:
In your estimate, what percentage of environmentalists on this forum, who also like people,(generally speaking), are invested in oil companies? Do you have a take on that, or do you prefer not to comment?
I expect that most (i.e, more than 50%) of those who invest knowingly put some money in oil and oil service companies. I would not be surprised if well over 75% did so.
If we expand the model to those who invest indirectly in oil and oil services companies, such as with mutual funds, I would expect the percentage to hit around 90%.
And if we include pension plans and all the other indirect investment vehicles, I'd expect 95% are involved with oil.
Finally, if we include those who own houses - the price of which tends to be supported by the oil economy - or are involved with businesses (as owner or employee) that depend on a vibrant oil-based economy - I'd bump the number up to 99%+. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Yea unfortunately ever person here has helped feed the monster by investing in the oil companies indirectly..... Buying food helps feed the oil company down the line... _________________ Tired of high gas prices? Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home
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Then stop driving to work, duh..... 
Well when you put it that way.... Its rather persuasive..
