Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe

Bas

Every once in a while my doomer side (yes I do have one) comes to the forefront and points me to the fact that while Holland may not be such a bad place to be in in case of a serious and prolonged economic crisis, but it's a very bad place to be in when a total collapse of society occurs and anarchy ensues (a 100 milion zombies, help!).

That in turn makes me think about what places I could and maybe should emigrate too; Ireland, Norway and Sweden have my fancy in this regard as they are relatively sparsly populated and seperated from the main population centres in Europe by water. On top of this they might not suffer so much from (or even "benefit" from) climate change.

So I'm interested to hear what you think are good places to move to within Europe and I'm esspecially curious to hear what people have to say from the three countries I mentioned before. Smile

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hugh-wright · Coal Joined: Aug 27, 2007 Posts: 15

Hello Bas! wave

I think the best place is amongst your own people. Why would you wish to enter a 'fast crash' valley of death in a strange place, surrounded by foreigners?

I'm English. I live in England. This is true of my ancestors for as far back as anyone can show.

The idea of running away just because there appears to be some aggro on the horizon seems silly imo: when has it ever been otherwise?

Humans are social animals and individual survival/the survival of ones children, is dependant on the wellbeing of the group of humans that you belong to. Trying to exist as a completely self-serving individual, unwilling to suffer for and with the tribe during trying times, seems to me to be a totally pointless and doomed endeavour. Your people will despise you as a selfish coward and the rest will see you as easy prey in your isolation.

There isn't going to be any '100 million zombies' in terms of a coherent group. Organize a local group of 100 and you'll easily dominate your parish.

I don't know about the other places but there are lots and lots of Irish in the UK and Europe and if things go pear shaped I would think they'd be off back to 'the auld country' in large numbers: it probably won't be as lightly populated as you might suppose.

edit: My brother recommends Rumania: good climate, nice people, not overpopulated, cheap prices, excellent wines.

skyemoor

Tough call; climate change might first put Northern Europe in a deep freeze by shutting down the Atlantic Conveyor (Gulfstream), then slowly bringing it back up to a bake. Or it may skip the first step, or the second, if people stop burning quite so many hydrocarbons.

I'm curious to see the opinions of others on this aspect.
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fiedag · Tar Sands Joined: Apr 20, 2006 Posts: 28

I agree totally with Hugh. People the world over, and down the ages have usually been suspicious and hostile towards foreigners. This dynamic is dormant during "good times" and resurges during bad times. If you want to relocate during the Bad Times To Come, you'd better be tremendously wealthy. In fact it may already be too late. Even if the calamity hits in 10 years, you will still be a relative newby in your new chosen community. It usually takes 1-2 generations for newcomers to really integrate into the dominant culture.

I say we all stay put and make the best of it. Choose your community, and continue to serve that community. Be as useful as you can be. Live for others, not yourself. Paradoxically, that is the best way to ensure your survival.

savethehumans · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Oct 20, 2004 Posts: 1541

Live somewhere on relatively high ground (that is farmable), near relatively clean (i.e., drinkable) water, and some distance from the sea. I mean, what's Holland gonna do when the sea level rises? You Netherlands dwellers are already below sea level as it is!

Just sayin'.

americandream

Madpaddy · Expert Joined: Jun 25, 2004 Posts: 1987

Hugh wrote,

Grifter

Madpaddy · Expert Joined: Jun 25, 2004 Posts: 1987

Sorry Grifter,

300,000 was wrong. The fgure is in fact 1.2 million.
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Bas

thanks for the replies, and welcome hugh-wright Smile

Being a foreigner probably doesn't help, no. While the Swedish for example seem very receptive to foreigners now, it's only logical to expect it will be less so in trying times. The Swedish and Dutch languages are quite similar on the other hand, making it much easier for me to learn it than for, say, the Chech language. Eastern Europe in all seems less welcoming to me, though they do have much more farming experience in the sense that they have more and smaller farms and hence are more labor intensive as we expect it will be in the future in the west.

The heat conveyor... I think if there's any part of climate change that is quite uncertain, it's the speculation of the heat conveyor coming to a halt. On the other hand, might the Greenland icecap decide to start to melt as fast as the North Pole, we're especially F*cked in this little country (it's the reason why the Dutch are, and have been so worried for a long time about climate change), though I already live close to the German border and well above sea level.

On the other hand, 90% of Holland consists of extremely fertile delta lands, and is still capable of feeding it's own if need be; other than rising sealevels, climate change is not expected to bring the kind of draughts that might strike large parts of the rest of the continent, especially considering the steady stream of fresh water supplied by the big rivers (though at the moment, the big rivers are considered the biggest threat for flooding due to the freak downpours that have been plaging Northern Europe for a number of years now)

So I guess I'm stuck here then, in what I think is a pretty good place to be when PO and climate change only hit in moderate ways but one of the worst places in either worst case scenario.
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nocar · Intermediate Crude Joined: Nov 05, 2004 Posts: 665

As a Swede living in Sweden, this is my understanding of the situation:

The reason why Norway, Sweden and Finland are sparsely populated is the fact that in pre-industrial times, when all food was grown locally, they simply could not feed more people. Soils are generally poor and the growing season short between frost periods. Although precipitation varies a lot between years, spring is often too dry for crops to grow well, late summer and early fall often have too much rain, destroying crops. Starvation periods were common.
Industrial fertilizers and crop rotation with nitrogen fixing plants (usually clover) have improved soil fertility, and global warming will be favorable for agriculture (probably - possible new pests makes it less certain). Yet, the high latitudes with long dark winters when nothing can grow will not improve with global warming.

I believe the Nordic countries can support their current population reasonable even in a future without fossil fuels (at least if we get rid of the energy-wasting cars), but not a lot of extra people fleeing from droughts and floods in their countries. Swedes seem to understand this, and therefore are acting (in words at least, quite lamely in reality) to combat global warming.

I will stay put. I think.
I am lucky though, through family members, Canada is an option if things go bad in Sweden.

nocar

KingM

If times get tough, there are few people more resourceful than the Dutch, so you're better of staying where you are.

Barring that, you might consider Canada (if you don't believe there will be a return to the ice ages) or New Zealand (if you do).

Alcassin

hugh-wright · Coal Joined: Aug 27, 2007 Posts: 15

Ebyss

What about France? They're practically begging for people to increase the rural population. In areas like Limousin the property is dirt cheap (compared to most other places in western Europe). Standard of living is high, they are exporters of electricity being mostly nuclear, their rail system is good - they have the same population of the UK with much more land to go around.

The climate in the southern regions is quite warm, and if you look at maps of the last big ice age, you'll see that France largely escaped (with the exception of the Alpine and Pyrennean regions), whereas Holland was totally under glacier.

Just keep an eye on the rivers, many of them flood quite spectacularly, so when the sea levels rise, the rivers will too. Stay away from the Rhone, and don't live close to the coast (stay particularly far away from the Bordeaux coastal area).

If you're worried about GW - then stay up near the Normandy, Le Mans, Brittany areas.

Ireland will be an ok place to be if it gets warmer - but expect a LOT of rain. If things get really bad we'll end up like Singapore. If the Gulf Stream shuts down (and all signs point to yes) then Ireland will most certainly NOT be a good place to live. Property is not cheap here - neither is the cost of living, but I expect that to change with the coming recession.
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