(That's about the tenth time I post that link on this forum. Additional confirmation here).
As for the actual subject, I'd imagine that most Nordic and Continental European countries could become self-sustainable, if the states interfere strongly in favor of agricultural production and (if necessary) food rationing. Socially and politically things will become very difficult, but the survival instinct will eventually compel people to make the necessary sacrifices and social transformations. _________________ "A devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desire... the best dictatorship would be one where the government prevents any economical growth."
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
-Pentti Linkola
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3788 Location: over here
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Thanks again for the replies everyone.
Ebyss wrote:
What about France? They're practically begging for people to increase the rural population. In areas like Limousin the property is dirt cheap (compared to most other places in western Europe). Standard of living is high, they are exporters of electricity being mostly nuclear, their rail system is good - they have the same population of the UK with much more land to go around.
The climate in the southern regions is quite warm, and if you look at maps of the last big ice age, you'll see that France largely escaped (with the exception of the Alpine and Pyrennean regions), whereas Holland was totally under glacier.
Just keep an eye on the rivers, many of them flood quite spectacularly, so when the sea levels rise, the rivers will too. Stay away from the Rhone, and don't live close to the coast (stay particularly far away from the Bordeaux coastal area).
If you're worried about GW - then stay up near the Normandy, Le Mans, Brittany areas.
Ireland will be an ok place to be if it gets warmer - but expect a LOT of rain. If things get really bad we'll end up like Singapore. If the Gulf Stream shuts down (and all signs point to yes) then Ireland will most certainly NOT be a good place to live. Property is not cheap here - neither is the cost of living, but I expect that to change with the coming recession.
I'd love to live in France, but my main consideration was getting away from the main population centres on continental europe and go to a place less densily populated but still fertile. Now there are parts of southern France that are quite unpopulated, but those regions are mountainous with little fertile land, plus that I expect that GW warming will increasingly wreak havoc in southern Europe with droughts, heatwaves etc. I only see sealevels rising to the point that Holland can't deal with it anymore much later on.
So I guess I'll stay put, expecting that society won't totally break down, even if life as we know it is going to change a lot. In a relatively positive scenario, we might even see a resurgence of the sense of community over here (though I deem that unlikely for highly urbanized areas in general) _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5936 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
I really enjoyed Switzerland when I was living in Europe. If I was going to return to Europe to live, Switzerland is the spot I would pick.
--Everyone is armed.
--Crime is low
--A long tradition of democracy and freedom
--A strong people who weren't conquered in WWII
--A wealthy society
--Highly cultured
--Multicultural (French, German, Italian and landed immigrants)
--Fantastic skiing and hiking and recreation opportunities.
--Not in the EU so they can control their own immigration policy
and close their borders if they choose to do so.
--Great rail network.
--Good access to the rest of Europe
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3788 Location: over here
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Plantagenet wrote:
I really enjoyed Switzerland when I was living in Europe. If I was going to return to Europe to live, Switzerland is the spot I would pick.
--Everyone is armed.
--Crime is low
--A long tradition of democracy and freedom
--A strong people who weren't conquered in WWII
--A wealthy society
--Highly cultured
--Multicultural (French, German, Italian and landed immigrants)
--Fantastic skiing and hiking and recreation opportunities.
--Not in the EU so they can control their own immigration policy
and close their borders if they choose to do so.
--Great rail network.
--Good access to the rest of Europe
While Switserland may be the easiest to defend country from foreign invasion because of the mountains, (and banking for the "enemy" in case of WWII)it's those same mountains that make Switserland the least sustainable country; acres of farmland/capita is the lowest in Europe, making it potentially one of the poorer nations of Europe.
Also the railsystem might be unrivalled for such a mountainous area, it's still much less efficient compared to the railsystems of the rest of Western Europe. Guns: only Swiss males aged 20-40 that do regular training for the army are obliged/allowed to keep a gun at home; that would be a bad thing being a foreigner. While hiking, recreation opportunities, culture etc, might be good things in a world of plenty, I regard them as quite useless in a SHTF scenario which is what this thread is about.
Switserland is btw a member of the Schengen agreement, which is the open borders treaty of the EU;individual EU members still set their own immigration policy. As a side note: Switserland is moving in the general direction of the EU, but I don't see this resulting into a full membership before the SHTF. It's debatable if this is a good/bad thing for Switserland, and when TSHTF, it might actually "force" the country to become a member for economic reasons, or it might close the door on it for xenophobic reasons.
So while Switserland is definately an interesting and a somewhat out of the ordinary country in Europe (the best place to be in Western Europe in case of war/the worst for sustainability) I think I'd still be better of with the certainties that I have in my own country, or one of the three countries I mentioned in my first post that score well both in sustainability as well as being out of harms way when it comes to chaos/war in the major population centres of Europe.
I haven't heard much about southern Europe so far, but I guess it's not hard to see that the densily populated med which is already being hammered by global warming will be the less desirable region to reside in the future. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Bas wrote:
I'd love to live in France, but my main consideration was getting away from the main population centres on continental europe and go to a place less densily populated but still fertile. Now there are parts of southern France that are quite unpopulated, but those regions are mountainous with little fertile land, plus that I expect that GW warming will increasingly wreak havoc in southern Europe with droughts, heatwaves etc. I only see sealevels rising to the point that Holland can't deal with it anymore much later on.
So I guess I'll stay put, expecting that society won't totally break down, even if life as we know it is going to change a lot. In a relatively positive scenario, we might even see a resurgence of the sense of community over here (though I deem that unlikely for highly urbanized areas in general)
I'm at about 180 metres above sea level, in the south-eastern part of Burgundy. It's flat, fertile and gets more than enough rain (the area is known as the "Bresse", which stems from an old word meaning "damp"). It's extremely cheap - I got a rebate off the notaire when buying my house because the area is under-populated. Agricultural land goes for ~2500 Euros/hectare. The local soils are clay and very fertile. A couple of years of soil improvement with organic matter should be sufficient to get my land in tip-top condition.
The locals are all hunters, so they can defend themselves if need be.
Wood is about 35 Euros/stere (metre cubed) or less and there is a lot of it about. In Switzerland or Italy it generally costs more than double this amount in my experience.
I highly recommended it. Send me a PM if you want more specific details. _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Bas wrote:
Guns: only Swiss males aged 20-40 that do regular training for the army are obliged/allowed to keep a gun at home; that would be a bad thing being a foreigner.
I thought that once they had completed their military service, they were allowed to keep their automatic service rifle. _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3788 Location: over here
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
davep wrote:
I'm at about 180 metres above sea level, in the south-eastern part of Burgundy. It's flat, fertile and gets more than enough rain (the area is known as the "Bresse", which stems from an old word meaning "damp"). It's extremely cheap - I got a rebate off the notaire when buying my house because the area is under-populated. Agricultural land goes for ~2500 Euros/hectare. The local soils are clay and very fertile. A couple of years of soil improvement with organic matter should be sufficient to get my land in tip-top condition.
The locals are all hunters, so they can defend themselves if need be.
Wood is about 35 Euros/stere (metre cubed) or less and there is a lot of it about. In Switzerland or Italy it generally costs more than double this amount in my experience.
I highly recommended it. Send me a PM if you want more specific details.
That sounds good , 2500 Euros/hectare is a bargain. Can I ask what country you're originally from? And how far are you from the nearest city? _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Bas wrote:
That sounds good , 2500 Euros/hectare is a bargain. Can I ask what country you're originally from? And how far are you from the nearest city?
Be careful though. You have to be a registered farmer to buy agricultural land. And even then the SAFER (private companies originally set up to stop concentration of land ownership) can preempt your purchase. I'm doing the basic studies required as of next month. My current four hectares are registered as "terrain d'agrement" so I got round the potential preemption.
We're about 30km from the nearest medium-sized city (50k inhabitants). 80km from anything like Dijon.
I'm from England originally (Liverpool). I lived in Canada as a kid, moved to France in my early twenties and have also lived in Italy. Apart from rural Canada, my current location seems the best bet for post-PO survival. I had it in mind when buying
Luckily I'm working via the internet and the place (admittedly rundown) was bought cash. I can now invest in the land and skills for at least trying to make the world a better place rather than being a keyboard warrior spreading doom and gloom, like some peakoil.com denizens that shall remain nameless _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3788 Location: over here
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
davep wrote:
Bas wrote:
That sounds good , 2500 Euros/hectare is a bargain. Can I ask what country you're originally from? And how far are you from the nearest city?
Be careful though. You have to be a registered farmer to buy agricultural land. And even then the SAFER (private companies originally set up to stop concentration of land ownership) can preempt your purchase. I'm doing the basic studies required as of next month. My current four hectares are registered as "terrain d'agrement" so I got round the potential preemption.
We're about 30km from the nearest medium-sized city (50k inhabitants). 80km from anything like Dijon.
I'm from England originally (Liverpool). I lived in Canada as a kid, moved to France in my early twenties and have also lived in Italy. Apart from rural Canada, my current location seems the best bet for post-PO survival. I had it in mind when buying
Luckily I'm working via the internet and the place (admittedly rundown) was bought cash. I can now invest in the land and skills for at least trying to make the world a better place rather than being a keyboard warrior spreading doom and gloom, like some peakoil.com denizens that shall remain nameless
It must've given you some interesting views on the world, having "grown up" in different countries Good to hear you're also setting up for a more sustainable life while being able to continue your work online; not in a position to set up for myself like that yet, and I don't think, well, I'm pretty sure actually that I won't be able to do so before TSHTF, and most likely it will be harder to set up shop after... Not going to give up though; always weighing my options in the back of my mind, and while I'm sort of stuck now for both financial and personal reasons, chance still favors my prepared mind. (I hope) _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Bas:
Locations are pretty cheap in the northern parts of Sweden, but be aware, they will rise in the future.
Here is an example, a property located 70 km from where I live.
Price: 1,1 million SEK, or about 116 000 EUR or $162 000.
The property includes: a 150 sqm main house. 23 hectares of forest, 8 hect. of agr. land, 2 hect. of other, own water (possibly a drilled well, ground water is plenty here), a bakery house, machinery, earth cellar, garage, a complete little saw mill and a garden with berries, apple trees and a green house.
Contrary to France, I do not think (but I can check it out for sure if you want) you have to be a registered farmer or have a timber company in order to buy such a property, but there are tight regulations dealing with harvesting the trees and re-planting of the forests, in order to stop someone from chopping down trees, cashing in and walk away without re-planting.
Joined: Apr 06, 2005 Posts: 1004 Location: 38 km west of Warsaw, Poland
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
^^^
Looks great Vortex. My question: would you need to be Swedish or EU citizen to buy property like this in your country? I'm in Poland at the moment for other reasons (family matters) but would have preferred something in Scandinavia. _________________ Remember, with globalisation "everyone is a winner" in the "race to the bottom". - rogerhb
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. A.C. Clarke
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
the lonliest foreigner is simply the human being least in knowledge of his own soul. The geographical destiny is not important because geographical destiny was written into the planets evolutionary pre set patterns. Your destiny within this geographical paridigm of an ever changing nature is simply an advbenture you are having with the rest of all possible creations.
Bas wrote:
Every once in a while my doomer side (yes I do have one) comes to the forefront and points me to the fact that while Holland may not be such a bad place to be in in case of a serious and prolonged economic crisis, but it's a very bad place to be in when a total collapse of society occurs and anarchy ensues (a 100 milion zombies, help!).
That in turn makes me think about what places I could and maybe should emigrate too; Ireland, Norway and Sweden have my fancy in this regard as they are relatively sparsly populated and seperated from the main population centres in Europe by water. On top of this they might not suffer so much from (or even "benefit" from) climate change.
So I'm interested to hear what you think are good places to move to within Europe and I'm esspecially curious to hear what people have to say from the three countries I mentioned before.
Joined: Apr 06, 2005 Posts: 1004 Location: 38 km west of Warsaw, Poland
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
I hear what you are saying 'no 19bus', but I don't believe that destiny has any thing to do with it. _________________ Remember, with globalisation "everyone is a winner" in the "race to the bottom". - rogerhb
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. A.C. Clarke
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3788 Location: over here
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Vortex wrote:
Bas:
Locations are pretty cheap in the northern parts of Sweden, but be aware, they will rise in the future.
Here is an example, a property located 70 km from where I live.
Price: 1,1 million SEK, or about 116 000 EUR or $162 000.
The property includes: a 150 sqm main house. 23 hectares of forest, 8 hect. of agr. land, 2 hect. of other, own water (possibly a drilled well, ground water is plenty here), a bakery house, machinery, earth cellar, garage, a complete little saw mill and a garden with berries, apple trees and a green house.
Contrary to France, I do not think (but I can check it out for sure if you want) you have to be a registered farmer or have a timber company in order to buy such a property, but there are tight regulations dealing with harvesting the trees and re-planting of the forests, in order to stop someone from chopping down trees, cashing in and walk away without re-planting.
Sounds really good Vortex , for that price you can only get a small apartment in Holland, and it's definately out of the way of zombie hordes, I do wonder about the limitations on crops/growing season at that latitude. Northern Sweden should also be one of the few places with a lot of wildlife.
thanks for the philosophical insight no19bus _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 524 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Best place to be/emigrate to within Europe
Vortex wrote:
Bas:
The property includes: a 150 sqm main house. 23 hectares of forest, 8 hect. of agr. land, 2 hect. of other, own water (possibly a drilled well, ground water is plenty here), a bakery house, machinery, earth cellar, garage, a complete little saw mill and a garden with berries, apple trees and a green house.
Paradise altogether with long winter nights it's the best what I have read. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
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, 2500 Euros/hectare is a bargain. Can I ask what country you're originally from? And how far are you from the nearest city?
