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PenultimateManStanding
Expert
Joined: Nov 28, 2004
Posts: 12385
Location: Neither Here Nor There
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 Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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| threadbear wrote: |
In fact, perhaps
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You may have a more optimistic view, living on your island, but here where I live it's clear that we are going nowhere if we can't get fuel. |
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JPL
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 1195
Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens |
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| BigTex wrote: |
When you identify your decision makers regarding what's a need and what's a want, there you have your elite (see Communism).
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So what's wrong with Communism?? Isn't it better to start to (at least to try and) share remaining resources amongst everyone, rather then let them be hogged by some rich Elite?
Also if we don't, we then face the hideous danger (as I have stated elsewhere) of Eco-Fascism. Won't THAT be fun (grin)?
JP |
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BigTex
Moderator
Joined: Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 4261
Location: Graceland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens |
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| JPL wrote: | | BigTex wrote: |
When you identify your decision makers regarding what's a need and what's a want, there you have your elite (see Communism).
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So what's wrong with Communism?? Isn't it better to start to (at least to try and) share remaining resources amongst everyone, rather then let them be hogged by some rich Elite?
Also if we don't, we then face the hideous danger (as I have stated elsewhere) of Eco-Fascism. Won't THAT be fun (grin)?
JP |
The elite I was talking about was the elite that tends to emerge in a Communist system.
Communist systems have the elite who decide what's a want and what's a need. Contrast this with capitalism where television fills this role. |
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JPL
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 1195
Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens |
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| BigTex wrote: |
Communist systems have the elite who decide what's a want and what's a need. |
That's not Communism (sigh). But I take your point that the system has yet to be proven to work in the real world.
JP |
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CarnbY
Heavy Crude
Joined: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 117
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens |
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| JPL wrote: | | BigTex wrote: |
Communist systems have the elite who decide what's a want and what's a need. |
That's not Communism (sigh). But I take your point that the system has yet to be proven to work in the real world. |
"In theory - communism works!" - Homer Simpson
I think human nature is our problem, not whatever ideology we embrace...
Were we doomed from the start, or didn't we try hard enough? |
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Ludi
NeoMaster
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 12469
Location: zombie horde wonderland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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Trying really really hard at something that doesn't work very well, at something that's doomed from the start - civilization - doesn't make it work any better.
Maybe let's try something different for a change, instead of the thing that's proven not to work. |
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JPL
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 1195
Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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| Ludi wrote: | Trying really really hard at something that doesn't work very well, at something that's doomed from the start - civilization - doesn't make it work any better.
Maybe let's try something different for a change, instead of the thing that's proven not to work. |
We should take from the past all that is valuable to us and pass it onto our children. Let THEM decide which was right, and which was wrong. If we do not give them everything, then we also give them nothing.
JP |
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TheTurtle
Fission
Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 2123
Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens |
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| CarnbY wrote: |
Were we doomed from the start, or didn't we try hard enough? |
Or maybe we tried too hard. 
_________________
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry) |
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thuja
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 1531
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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Go down fighting- hee hee
Pre-pubescent fantasies by drooling apocolyptists who've been playing way too much Doom.
Die-off is a misnomer that few here seem to get. Substitute the words Population Contraction for Die-off and you'll get a better idea of what is going to happen.
Contraction is a process of decreased fertility and lowered average lifespans- due to- increased poverty, less medical care, alcoholism/drug addiction, poor nutrition, etc etc. Take a look at the ex-Soviet Union States and much of Eastern Europe to understand what Die-off looks like- its a lot less fantastic than most here on the board would like to think.
Yes pin-point die-offs are likely to happen as they are happening or have happened right now in the Congo, Sudan, Iraq, North Korea and Rwanda. But population levels are likely to decrease in amuch less dramatic fashion worldwide, and certainly in more fertile and temperate First World countries.
So go down fighting? Fighting what? You're friend who just got fired from Countrywide? Your neighbor who can't pay for his ARM? The kids who are stealing from your wood pile? or picking apples out of your trees?
There is no one to fight- only gnawing poverty and ignorance. Put away the guns and start working on solutions in your community... |
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Ludi
NeoMaster
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 12469
Location: zombie horde wonderland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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| JPL wrote: | We should take from the past all that is valuable to us and pass it onto our children. Let THEM decide which was right, and which was wrong. If we do not give them everything, then we also give them nothing.
JP |
Why wouldn't we take from the past what is valuable and pass it on? But by deciding what is "valuable" we are making a value judgement (deciding which is right or wrong). So which is it? Pass on everything? Or pass on everything which is valuable? Or is it all valuable?
But I don't have children, so I don't need to worry about making such decisions. |
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Ferretlover
Moderator
Joined: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 3580
Location: Minniesotuh
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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HHHmmm... Shouldn't we make a decision about what the end goal is to be first?
Seems to me that would help to discern what was actually valuable to attain that goal, and what should be discarded, but filed away, so that those ideas/actions would, hopefully, not be repeated in the future. |
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Ludi
NeoMaster
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 12469
Location: zombie horde wonderland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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Do you mean the goal for Humanity, or, the goal for your community, or the goal for your family, or the goal for yourself?
At what level can we decide on an end goal?
And who is "we" in this context? |
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BigTex
Moderator
Joined: Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 4261
Location: Graceland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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| thuja wrote: | Go down fighting- hee hee
Pre-pubescent fantasies by drooling apocolyptists who've been playing way too much Doom.
...
So go down fighting? Fighting what? You're friend who just got fired from Countrywide? Your neighbor who can't pay for his ARM? The kids who are stealing from your wood pile? or picking apples out of your trees?
There is no one to fight- only gnawing poverty and ignorance. Put away the guns and start working on solutions in your community... |
I always assume the only real fight is against the urge to become hopeless. Sort of like the PO version of "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."
A hopeless mind often has trouble formulating creative solutions to problems it faces. I hope you see that however dire the PO situation turns out to be, each of us will fare better if we are able to think clearly and not go into a Chicken Little tirade of doom. |
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Ludi
NeoMaster
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 12469
Location: zombie horde wonderland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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| BigTex wrote: | | I hope you see that however dire the PO situation turns out to be, each of us will fare better if we are able to think clearly and not go into a Chicken Little tirade of doom. |
Hear hear!
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Ferretlover
Moderator
Joined: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 3580
Location: Minniesotuh
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting! |
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| Ludi wrote: | | Why wouldn't we take from the past what is valuable and pass it on? But by deciding what is "valuable" we are making a value judgement (deciding which is right or wrong). So which is it? Pass on everything? Or pass on everything which is valuable? Or is it all valuable? |
I have underlined the 'we' in this context.
"Do you mean the goal for Humanity, or, the goal for your community, or the goal for your family, or the goal for yourself?"
One or more of the above goals.
One can hardly assume what would be valuable or what should be trashed if one doesn't have a goal/desired result in mind.
IHMO, you either have a goal, then work to achieve it, or, you just accept all and try to change all that is encompassed in your immediate and/or extended environment, "willy-nilly" with no goal in mind.
The second possibility seems rather unproductive and wasteful to me, in the sense of energy (of any type) that will be required to augment changes at any level or of any type. |
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