Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12471 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Do you think people can decide on an end goal for Humanity? If so, who would decide and how would the decision process occur? Or does each individual formulate a goal for Humanity?
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3582 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Nobody can solve a problem if they don't know what the problem is and what makes it a problem. I think it is possible to accidently solve a problem, but if the someone who does so doesn't know there was a problem in the first place, and, doesn't share their knowledge with any others, of what value is that?
Everyone who can think has personal goals at sometime in their lives. Unfortunately, there are a Great many people who do not or cannot reach those goals for many reasons: they do not have the knowledge to reach their goals, they are too lazy to attempt to reach those goals on their own, etc.
And, it is ludicrous to assume that people who think don't have goals for humanity. It would be interesting to find out what those goals are--perhaps a survey done in a local mall, or on the streets or your city, etc. "What would your goal for humanity be?" I am fairly certain that every single person could think of something! (Even beauty pageant contestants, "I'd like world peace...")
Because a person has, essentially no power over the thoughts and actions of the rest of the world does not mean they cannot have thoughts/wishes for the reality that they would like to see develop for humanity.
"Who do you, Ferretlover, mean by "we"? That's what I'm asking."
In the terms of this discussion, *I* meant 'we' as the members who were discussing this topic. Brainstorming towards possible goals for a group/population of any size is a good mental, problem-solving exercise.
And, you said:
"Trying really really hard at something that doesn't work very well, at something that's doomed from the start - civilization - doesn't make it work any better. Maybe let's try something different for a change, instead of the thing that's proven not to work"
If you feel that civilization was doomed from the start, why do you plan to work with your neighbors?
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12471 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
When I use the word "civilization" I use it in the anthropological sense.
Civilization isn't sustainable, but human society, human culture, can be.
For more thoughts along these lines, I recommend the books of Daniel Quinn, especially "The Story of B."
I think it would be ludicrous for me to devise a goal for humanity. It might not be ludicrous for you to do so. It's just not the way I tend to think about my role on the planet, I'm not that capable of making decisions, especially for others.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12471 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Try not to "read into" what I say so much, Ferretlover. We'd communicate better, if you don't understand what I'm saying, if you would ask me to clarify instead of assuming I'm saying something I'm not.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3582 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Ludi wrote:
Do you think people can decide on an end goal for Humanity? If so, who would decide and how would the decision process occur? Or does each individual formulate a goal for Humanity?
Do I personally think that people can decide on an end goal for Humanity. Yes.
Do I personally think that all humans will come to the same idea?
No.
Do I favor discussing possibilities for possible end goals? Yes.
IHMO, working with words to solve problems beats the heck out of just killing off dissenters.
"Who would decide?" Why, the people who would be affected by the decisions that were developed and accepted.. If their decisions worked in a way that others saw as desirable, then the others would be free to adapt those goals and expand on them as they saw fit.
Humans aren't going to change radically, They will continue to use the same methods of developing villages, towns, cities, governments as they have always done until a different procedure is accepted by them or forced upon them.
Not knowing the desired goal, I could not guess about how it would be implemented. I imagine that there could be many ways to reach an end goal. For instance, when I belonged to a quilter's guild, we all made quilts. We did not all use the same methods, but the end result was the same-a finished quilt.
"Or does each individual formulate a goal for Humanity?"
Why not? Formulating an idea does not require that it must be accepted by all. It does infer that the individual is interested in the future outcome for Humanity, and is making an effort to develop Humanity in some way. It does not mean that the idea is a good one. There is a Great deal of difference between thinking and doing.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12471 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Ferretlover wrote:
They will continue to use the same methods of developing villages, towns, cities, governments as they have always done until a different procedure is accepted by them or forced upon them.
But humans haven't "always" formed cities and governments; this kind of society is the minority among human cultures, probably only about 10,000 years old or so. That's what I mean by "civilization." We can devise different ways to live, because people have done so in the past.
That's a goal quite a lot of people have, actually, to find a different way to live.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3582 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Ludi wrote:
Try not to "read into" what I say so much, Ferretlover. We'd communicate better, if you don't understand what I'm saying, if you would ask me to clarify instead of assuming I'm saying something I'm not.Thanks.
I do try not to read into what someone writes. I make an effort to respond covering/interpeting what I read. Responding can be done in so many ways, but since I can not hear the tone of your voice, or read your body language, I try to respond in several ways to give the reader, hopefully, a better idea of "where I am coming from."
I assume nothing intentionally. I respond based on my personal life experiences. If I find that my response is negative, I try to figure out why and work around it, trying not to be negative back (unless I can't get around the fact that someone is trying to "pull my chain." My kids Still call me the Dragon Lady at times! lol)
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12471 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
ok, thanks. I hope you don't mind if I try to clarify what I'm saying if I think you might have misunderstood. For instance, when I say "I" or "me" I mean my own self and not anyone else, and when I say "you" I almost always mean "you the person I'm addressing" and not "me" or "someone." And generally if I ask a question I'm actually asking a question, and not debating.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3582 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Ludi wrote:
When I use the word "civilization" I use it in the anthropological sense.
Civilization isn't sustainable, but human society, human culture, can be.
For more thoughts along these lines, I recommend the books of Daniel Quinn, especially "The Story of B."
I think it would be ludicrous for me to devise a goal for humanity. It might not be ludicrous for you to do so. It's just not the way I tend to think about my role on the planet, I'm not that capable of making decisions, especially for others.
I have ordered the Quinn book (Monte suggested it).
Please be more specific: define what type of civilization you are referring to, please.
I can not immediately see why it would be ludicrous for you, or anyone else, to devise a goal for humanity. Makes me think of people who think that just because something is written, it must be so (or, it is "carved in stone").
Just because an idea is not put into action, does not make it less valid. And, maybe, someday in the future that idea would be a perfect fit--if it was remembered.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3582 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Ludi wrote:
... But humans haven't "always" formed cities and governments; this kind of society is the minority among human cultures, probably only about 10,000 years old or so. That's what I mean by "civilization." We can devise different ways to live, because people have done so in the past.
That's a goal quite a lot of people have, actually, to find a different way to live.
They (cities, etc) have been around for as long as I've been around! lol It is hard, for me, to imagine anything different.
IMHO, whenever there are more than one, Maybe two, people together, there is always some form of hierarchy established-for defense, who eats first, etc. I imagine that this is also true for many animal species. I don't know about plant species.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12471 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Ferretlover wrote:
I can not immediately see why it would be ludicrous for you, or anyone else, to devise a goal for humanity.
I think I already explained why I think it would ludicrous for me to devise a goal for humanity. It's just not something I feel qualified to do and sort of doesn't fit in with my view of my place in the world.
Is it important to you that I devise a goal for humanity? Or is it unimportant?
I guess I'm not sure if this is something we should continue to try to discuss, or not....
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