Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12553 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Ferretlover wrote:
IMHO, whenever there are more than one, Maybe two, people together, there is always some form of hierarchy established-for defense, who eats first, etc.
I've not experienced this to be the case in my life. I've often been in situations in which there was no hierarchy. Especially in my household.
Egalitarianism isn't that rare, in my own experience, but, maybe that's because it's the way I see things, rather than in terms of hierarchy. People tend to see what they're used to seeing, I think.
If a person can't imagine a different way to live, it might be difficult to identify ways to avoid problems inherent in a particular way of life.
For instance, a person who sees civilization as the only way for people to live, will think of "Humanity" as doomed if civilization is doomed, even though humanity is not civiization and vice versa. It's just a way to live.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3642 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
"I think I already explained why I think it would ludicrous for me to devise a goal for humanity. It's just not something I feel qualified to do and sort of doesn't fit in with my view of my place in the world.
Is it important to you that I devise a goal for humanity? Or is it unimportant?
I guess I'm not sure if this is something we should continue to try to discuss, or not...."
I have re-read this entire thread, and do not see where you explain why it would be ludicrous for you to devise a goal.
Why are you not qualified? If it is because you have apparently assumed that you would be part of the 'die-off," that would be silly. We are ALL going to die sooner or later. That would not invalidate your chance/choice to come to some sort of decision.
Why doesn't it fit in with your view of your place in the world?
Is it important to me that you devise a goal? Not necessarily.
Is it important to me that you understand that I consider your opinion (and ideas) just as 'important' as anyone else's? Yes.
Further discussion? Maybe, maybe not. Are we just wearing each other out trying to define semantics? Are we developing some rational perimeters for defining goals?
Or, do we just need to absorb what we've discussed so far, and pick up the discussion again later?
There is Always a hierarchy. Even in chaos.
And, I think I am reading civilization as 'culture.' I don't think that civilization is the only way to live. I will bet that there are many people who don't want to interact with civilization-but, I doubt there are many who can live without the benefits provided by civilization/society. There have been times when I thought I would like to live alone-with extremely limited interaction with others. There are so many stupid (unable to think) people, and ignorant people (recognize that their thinking processes are lacking or flawed, AND are too lazy to upgrade).. But, I digress.......
I have often thought that the world of 'Star Trek' societies might be nice to live in-where most people worked together towards a goal of seeking knowledge.
Maybe just a society where the primary goal is NOT acquisition only. ... sigh... _________________ "RRrrruuuunnnn!!!" ~Apocalypto
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
It is in the nature of humans to think great thoughts, and then go and Fark up on the details (grin).
Many of our greatest thinkers have become such only by understanding their faults. Withdrawal from the world does not mean you have failed to cast your dice on the table (grin).
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4312 Location: Graceland
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens
JPL wrote:
BigTex wrote:
Communist systems have the elite who decide what's a want and what's a need.
That's not Communism (sigh). But I take your point that the system has yet to be proven to work in the real world.
JP
Has it been proven to work somewhere besides the real world?
I don't mean to kick an old lady while she's drunk and passed out on the floor and maybe dead, but it seems like every Communist experiment has made the point very clearly that we may not know the exact form of government that works best, but we know it's not Communism....Unless you are among the Communist elite, then it's probably great.
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: Re: new Edens
BigTex wrote:
JPL wrote:
BigTex wrote:
Communist systems have the elite who decide what's a want and what's a need.
That's not Communism (sigh). But I take your point that the system has yet to be proven to work in the real world.
JP
Has it been proven to work somewhere besides the real world?
I don't mean to kick an old lady while she's drunk and passed out on the floor and maybe dead, but it seems like every Communist experiment has made the point very clearly that we may not know the exact form of government that works best, but we know it's not Communism....Unless you are among the Communist elite, then it's probably great.
The Diggers were an English group, begun by Gerrard Winstanley as True Levellers in 1649, who became known as "Diggers" due to their activities.
Their original name came from their belief in economic equality based upon a specific passage in the Book of Acts.[1] The Diggers attempted to reform (by "levelling" real property) the existing social order with an agrarian lifestyle based upon their ideas for the creation of small egalitarian rural communities.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4312 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens
JPL wrote:
BigTex wrote:
JPL wrote:
BigTex wrote:
Communist systems have the elite who decide what's a want and what's a need.
That's not Communism (sigh). But I take your point that the system has yet to be proven to work in the real world.
JP
Has it been proven to work somewhere besides the real world?
I don't mean to kick an old lady while she's drunk and passed out on the floor and maybe dead, but it seems like every Communist experiment has made the point very clearly that we may not know the exact form of government that works best, but we know it's not Communism....Unless you are among the Communist elite, then it's probably great.
The Diggers were an English group, begun by Gerrard Winstanley as True Levellers in 1649, who became known as "Diggers" due to their activities.
Their original name came from their belief in economic equality based upon a specific passage in the Book of Acts.[1] The Diggers attempted to reform (by "levelling" real property) the existing social order with an agrarian lifestyle based upon their ideas for the creation of small egalitarian rural communities.
JP
Is going back several hundred years to a group that presumably long ago abandoned its communalism and existed before Marx even came up with his worker/capitalist struggle supposed to be an example of how Communism works or an example of how it doesn't work?
Al Haig was once talking about how the post-Soviet Union Moscow was bustling with capitalism. He said "you can go to certain hotels in Moscow and it almost feels like you are in Beverly Hills, except there aren't any Communists."
I'm all for the idea of sharing with the less fortunate and the government representing a safety net in some situations. The only things that Communist nations seem really good at, though, are repressing dissent within their borders and operating elaborate spying operations because it is easier to steal a capitalist economy's technology than build their own.
See "The Sword and the Shield" for an eye-opening look at how the Soviet Union found it more cost effective to steal military technology from the West than to develop it themselves. The bizarre irony of this was that U.S. defense contractors were essentially competing with the last generation of their own technology for much of the Cold War. The defense industry would moan: "The Russians' hardware is no more than one generation behind ours. We have to spend more to expand that gap." They didn't realize that the Russians would ALWAYS be, at most, one generation behind the U.S. because it took about one generation of weapons technology to steal it, reverse engineer it and get it into production.
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1211 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: new Edens
BigTex wrote:
Is going back several hundred years to a group that presumably long ago abandoned its communalism and existed before Marx even came up with his worker/capitalist struggle supposed to be an example of how Communism works or an example of how it doesn't work?
Al Haig was once talking about how the post-Soviet Union Moscow was bustling with capitalism. He said "you can go to certain hotels in Moscow and it almost feels like you are in Beverly Hills, except there aren't any Communists."
I'm all for the idea of sharing with the less fortunate and the government representing a safety net in some situations. The only things that Communist nations seem really good at, though, are repressing dissent within their borders and operating elaborate spying operations because it is easier to steal a capitalist economy's technology than build their own.
See "The Sword and the Shield" for an eye-opening look at how the Soviet Union found it more cost effective to steal military technology from the West than to develop it themselves. The bizarre irony of this was that U.S. defense contractors were essentially competing with the last generation of their own technology for much of the Cold War. The defense industry would moan: "The Russians' hardware is no more than one generation behind ours. We have to spend more to expand that gap." They didn't realize that the Russians would ALWAYS be, at most, one generation behind the U.S. because it took about one generation of weapons technology to steal it, reverse engineer it and get it into production.
OK just to clarify:
Firstly, I am not a communist.
Second, the Russians have never been communist - that dream died (arguably) when Trotsky had an ice-pick stuck in his head for daring to suggest that they should be.
Likewise the Chinese, North Koreans etc., etc., are no more communist states than I am a fairy godmother.
Communism is a pure ideal, difficult to make work in practice, but the problem is perhaps with either human nature or timing, rather than the idea itself (grin).
The Diggers, the Levellers & the Luddites have been influential on left-wing thought around the world for centuries - they continue to be so.
I think these sorts of ideas are worth revisiting for a post-peak world, because I think one thing IS abundently clear from the general 'peak-oil-depletion-global-warming' discussion. Namely that Marx was right about ONE detail at least:
Capitalism - the idea of infinite growth and eventual prosperity for all levels of the pile - is really just about exploitation. Grabbing what you can from the pile before the other guys get there.
Well, guess what? The pile just ran out. Oops... ...So maybe we should read those left-wing manuals again - if only to remind ourselves what happens after Capitalism blows up...
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4312 Location: Graceland
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: Re: new Edens
JPL wrote:
OK just to clarify:
Firstly, I am not a communist.
Second, the Russians have never been communist - that dream died (arguably) when Trotsky had an ice-pick stuck in his head for daring to suggest that they should be.
Likewise the Chinese, North Koreans etc., etc., are no more communist states than I am a fairy godmother.
Communism is a pure ideal, difficult to make work in practice, but the problem is perhaps with either human nature or timing, rather than the idea itself (grin).
The Diggers, the Levellers & the Luddites have been influential on left-wing thought around the world for centuries - they continue to be so.
I think these sorts of ideas are worth revisiting for a post-peak world, because I think one thing IS abundently clear from the general 'peak-oil-depletion-global-warming' discussion. Namely that Marx was right about ONE detail at least:
Capitalism - the idea of infinite growth and eventual prosperity for all levels of the pile - is really just about exploitation. Grabbing what you can from the pile before the other guys get there.
Well, guess what? The pile just ran out. Oops... ...So maybe we should read those left-wing manuals again - if only to remind ourselves what happens after Capitalism blows up...
JP
I'm with you brother. Capitalism is just having a one night stand with Mother Earth when you look at it from a longer historical perspective. The next dominant form of government and method of resource allocation/use will need to be something that doesn't reward the highest and fastest levels of production/consumption, but it will also need to give a nod to human nature. Unfortunately, I don't know if that's possible.
I just fear that the problem, as you suggest, may be with human nature, as opposed to various systems of government.
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Good posts everywhere...nice!
My blind guess is that no government can resist complete corruption very long. As many previous have stated on this thread (indirectly), civilization is grossly overrated.
It's an open question if modern civilization is a better deal for humanity than the age old hunter/gatherer society, huh? But even if so, there's just way, way to many people for that, right? I wish I was smart enough to know the answer.
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 521 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: Re: new Edens
BigTex wrote:
Is going back several hundred years to a group that presumably long ago abandoned its communalism and existed before Marx even came up with his worker/capitalist struggle supposed to be an example of how Communism works or an example of how it doesn't work?
You guys are looking too far in past.
I assume you can read George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" You will find something else than Gulag I think you can also read about '20 and '30 in Vienna.
State Socialism works the same as capitalism - where nomenklatur is a state elite, and this creates another form of class society. That form of socialism requires also growth as members of lower class want to become members of higher class with material priviliges. Basic engine is the same, marxists in general are not anti-growth but they demand egalitarian distribution of that growth.
We live in capitalist culture and that's why I think our way of thinking, our methods always are connected with capitalist reality. But it isn't impossible. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
threadbear wrote:
This is a core issue on this site, but people kind of dance around it. I'd like to see it addressed.
Dieoff isn't going to happen without a nuclear war.
Roman Italy had 10 million people in it.
Rome itself had one million people.
There were 500 cities in Roman italy with a thousand people in them.
They did all of that with no technology and without modern agriculture.
I thus conclude that the vast majority of the United States is in fact sustainable. Just not the North East and anywhere else that doesn't have enough water and more than 10 million people including one 1 million person city per 100,000 square miles.
So New York City and California are basically screwed but there are some decent liveable places to live that will make it through.
You might be flat broke but probably not dead.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
Dan_Browne wrote:
So New York City and California are basically screwed but there are some decent liveable places to live that will make it through.
You might be flat broke but probably not dead.
You are assuming that population remains fixed. Do you really think people will lay down and die? There could be mass migrations to "sustainable" areas, rendering them unsustainable through sheer numbers.
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 6417 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
mos6507 wrote:
You are assuming that population remains fixed. Do you really think people will lay down and die? There couldwill without question be mass migrations to "sustainable" areas, rendering them unsustainable through sheer numbers.
It's amazing how many posters on this board don't understand this most basic of concepts.
There will be no place on this planet that will be immune to the effects of what is coming. _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: We'll go down fighting!
[/quote]I have often thought that the world of 'Star Trek' societies might be nice to live in-where most people worked together towards a goal of seeking knowledge.
Maybe just a society where the primary goal is NOT acquisition only. ... sigh...[/quote]
Ferret, That's what we're moving towards, and it's a bumpy process. People will eventually come to the conclusion that buying stuff can't make up for the rich experience of learning, and forming cooperative bonds with others.
As far as hierarchies go, I think that people have trouble with the concept. They think in terms of bureaucratic hierarchies set up by corporate and political bodies. When these systems break down or just erode, those with natural authority are sought out. Those with dynamic personalities, the visionaries, those who empower with wise words, lead people out of the wilderness. Hey...like YOU.
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You will find something else than Gulag 
I think you can also read about '20 and '30 in Vienna.
