For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
Carlhole wrote:
But the reporter in the video had been shown a test tube full of seawater that when (ostensibly) bombarded with radio waves produced a rather large flame!
Stick the terminals of a 9 volt battery in the same test tube of salt water and the same thing will happen. He's built an large expensive machine that performs the same function as a 9v battery and a couple of wires. Why is that news? _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Carlhole wrote:
But the reporter in the video had been shown a test tube full of seawater that when (ostensibly) bombarded with radio waves produced a rather large flame!
Stick the terminals of a 9 volt battery in the same test tube of salt water and the same thing will happen. He's built an large expensive machine that performs the same function as a 9v battery and a couple of wires. Why is that news?
Electrolysis is what everyone has compared this to. But I don't think so because in electrolysis you have an anode and a cathode submerged in water and a current running between them which splits off hydrogen and oxygen.
But in this case, Kanzius is using radio waves. Electromagnetic radiation produces electron flow along a wire according to polarity but in the case of simply bombarding salt water with radio waves, where is the anode?, where is the cathode? and what is the polarity? - which direction is the electron flow?
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
Carlhole wrote:
but in the case of simply bombarding salt water with radio waves, where is the anode?, where is the cathode? and what is the polarity? - which direction is the electron flow?
The flame looks kind of plasma-like to me. I'd search for your electrical current there.
Before he was claiming to have made a 76% efficient machine for liberating H2 from its O. Now he's gone to the over unity, la la land. If we add the "information embargo" he's dropping off of "news" pretty fast.
I hope he comes around and releases the information. Has anyone done any patent digging yet for this guy?
Let's try to focus on new relevant information. That may kill the thread but it would be Kanzius' fault, not ours. _________________ EntropyFails
"Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
entropyfails wrote:
Carlhole wrote:
but in the case of simply bombarding salt water with radio waves, where is the anode?, where is the cathode? and what is the polarity? - which direction is the electron flow?
The flame looks kind of plasma-like to me. I'd search for your electrical current there...
Let's try to focus on new relevant information. That may kill the thread but it would be Kanzius' fault, not ours.
Kanzius has been having an argument with somebody called Jerome Goodwin Sr. who claims it is a plasma effect. Kanzius has replied that the flame lasts up to three seconds after his machine is turned off.
The dialogue has evoked comments like the one below:
It looks to me as video on youtube.com supports Jerome's observation regarding RF making the arc (like plasma) between dense droplets of water. The paper towel DOES NOT BURN! You see this and Kanzius mentioned this. Because there is no burning process. This is a light created by RF in
the densely moisturized air. But then how is the engine working? Pressure from freely coming up steam cannot be enough.
This I don't know.
Vlad.
P.S. I am not a nay sayer. Opposite, I have joint this group in hope
that Kazius have found a replacement for fossil fuel.
And Kanzius says he has a chemist doing some experiments for him this weekend. Hopefully, the story doesn't just die as I'm curious about what actually is going on here. I don't think it will since a Google of 'Kanzius' produces 26,800 web pages already. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
Carlhole wrote:
What is interesting is the farking robust flame coming out of a test tube full of seawater by a means not previously known.
An interesting question, does this fit any know phenomena observed with microwave radiation?
A probable explanation - It's just common microwave plasma and his explanation is hoax...
A split grape a the microwave will produce flames similar to those observed in the video. The white deposits on the edge of the second tube are probably salt and water is evaporating into a glowing plasma on the surface. Here are some videos of plasmas you can play with in your home microwave.
An improbable explanation - plasma separation of Sodium, Chlorine, Oxygen and Hydrogen forming Sodium hypochlorite and Hydrogen.
BIG "IF", I don't think it would work out this way but lets pretend for a moment. It is easy to create a plasma with microwaves, just put a candle in your microwave, you can even create plasmas without a flame using grapes. And so perhaps making a plasma from wicked sea water is possible. And perhaps though magic the microwaves are breaking everything down in the plasma to reform into Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) and Hydrogen. If the reaction is anything like that, he would be producing huge quantities of bleach and hydrogen. Yuck!
EROEI
There are several considerations in calculating EROEI. First, it may not matter. This could be a new way to produce bleach and therefore have value as an industrial process that produces hydrogen as residue. But if he thinks he could get power out of this and the process is somehow producing something like sodium hypochlorite and Hydrogen, the EROEI should still be an energy loser.
For fun though, you might be able to play around with this in your microwave. Two tubes with touching wicks might make a plasma flame similar to what this guy demonstrates, like the grapes video. However, you probably won't get any energy out of such a process!
A materials scientist is heated up over the effect of John Kanzius' external radio-wave generator on salt water. "It is scientifically a staggeringly important discovery", said Rustum Roy, a leading authority on microwave applications on materials technology.
Roy was in Erie on Thursday to view experiments with the radio-wave generator at Industrial Sales and Manufacturing Inc., the Millcreek company that builds Kanzius' generator. In the experiments, a test tube of salt water creates a flame when bombarded by the generator.
It will certainly shape a lot of science, said Roy, who founded the Materials Science Laboratory at Pennsylvania State University. It will tell us a lot more about the structure of water than anything in 100 years. It's a big, big contribution to the science of water.
Roy, a Penn State professor emeritus, still teaches some classes there and oversees research. He has done studies on the structure of water. He is also a visiting professor of medicine at the University of Arizona and distinguished professor of materials at Arizona State University. He spends his winters in Arizona.
Kanzius said Roy was the first outside expert in water to view the demonstration. It was sink-or-swim time for the project, Kanzius said. Kanzius said he is pleased with the assessment, especially because there have been skeptics. To hear a world authority give such a rave review is phenomenal, he said. It's more than we ever expected to hear from him today. I expected him to hit me on the head with a sledgehammer and say, "Wake up!"
Kanzius, a Millcreek inventor and a former television and radio broadcaster and engineer, built the radio-wave generator in 2003 as a way of treating cancer. The cancer research, he said, is going fullspeed ahead.
He found the generator's effect on salt water by a fluke during a demonstration in the fall of 2006 and has been exploring its use as an alternative energy source since then.
Roy said the Kanzius' discovery has scientific value in itself and also has the potential to create an alternative energy source and perhaps even to benefit medicine beyond cancer.
Where its applications lead is hard to tell,” said Roy. Science is not hard to tell. It's going to be a whole new growth tree of science of the radiation effects on water structure.
Roy said he isn't sure whether the generator's use would result in a net gain in energy since the generator itself is powered by energy.
It is certainly a new route for active research, he said.
Everyone on this thread has dismissed the Radio Wave/Salt Water thing as a non-energy source.
I'm not contesting that.
If it were an energy source, it would stand physics on it's head. But the effect IS previously unobserved and not understood. I just say this because it seems to be the knee-jerk reaction around here - "What? Not an energy source? Then it's not worth looking at!". The potential energy source comments from Kanzius and now Roy are merely informal and the question of EROEI has not been rigorously measured as yet. I wish they'd hurry up and do that since it is the natural thing to ask.
But this really is an interesting phenomenon apart from energy considerations. In the video, a fairly sizeable flame was rising off a test tube of salt water. The inventor insists it is a "flame", not a "plasma". Makes you wonder what other compunds would exhibit curious phenomena when bombarded with radio waves.
Anyway, here you have a newspaper reporting that a scientific world authority has looked at this and claimed that it indeed IS a "staggering" new phenomenon.
In another thread previous to the above one at Yahoo Groups, Kanzius had this to say:
Quote:
August 12 - The CBS News Network was in last week for the cancer procedure..They also taped some of the saltwater..We shall see what happens in the next few weeks. I have had the Motor Trend folks in and have the world's foremost authorities on water coming in soon.
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
The problem these days is people think that energy that comes out of that hole in the wall is free, abundant and unlimited... If your energy "source" depends on that hole, you are out of luck... I dont blame humans for not understanding, we have such a limited POV, and most of us dont understand physics, chemistry, electricity and how power plants work in depth...
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
HorneyGeekBoi wrote:
...most of us dont understand physics, chemistry, electricity and how power plants work in depth...
As far as I can tell with what information that has been available on this so far, trained scientists are mostly at a loss to explain the Kanzius Effect as well.
John Kanzius has only made mention once of a few people out there who seem to have any idea at all about what exactly is going on molecularly.
It looks like CBS and others have been to see the inventor recently. Perhaps there will be more information forthcoming. I hope it includes some reports about energy inputs from radio waves and the estimated output of heat energy.
In the video, the heat energy from the "saltwater flame" was running a small steam engine (the water in the test tube wasn't boiling or anything so obvious as that).
Questions arise such as: Even if the EROEI is less than one, how close to one is it? In other words, how efficient a splitter of oxygen and hydrogen is this compared with electrolysis? If it's highly efficient, it would present significant opportunities for a variety of applied science uses.
I'm mostly amazed that this story has gone so underreported. People have reacted as if Kanzius were simply pulling a parlor trick. But it doesn't appear to be wool-pulling - especially given the testimony of Rustum Roy, the Penn State Materials Science Professor. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:42 am Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
This is simply another hoax.
He claims “over unit” energy, and the physics are obviously impossible.
That is itself is enough.
But in this case, all the associated “hoax” signs are there.
I will point just one:
Why a “sink-or-swim” moment?
Isn’t it producing “over unit” energy?
Isn’t cancer research (please! ) going ahead quite well?
So, why does "validation" (only referring to an interesting effect on water - nothing about energy) from 1 gullible old man make that difference?
But I could refer several other points that also disprove the thing:
The classic “news blackout”, the typical background of the “inventor” (a TV presenter! LOL ), the catchy "cancer stuff", the funny "steam engine" gizmo, the shady company he created, the fact that no one is reproducing the results around the world… (Face it: would it be so difficult for serious researchers in well equipped university labs to reproduce the full effect of microwaves over salt water that a TV presenter “invented”?)
That guy is just another OBVIOUS con artist, in the line of hundreds that try to earn their living with these hare brained schemes…
Rustum Roy (born July 3, 1924) is a materials scientist, science policy analyst, advocate of interdisciplinary education and alternative medicine, and science and religion. Roy holds professorships in materials science at Arizona State University and in medicine at the University of Arizona, as well as emeritus honors at Pennsylvania State University (Penn State) in three fields.
Roy was born, and received both BS and MS degrees in chemistry in India. He earned a Ph.D. in ceramics at Penn State in 1948, and became an American citizen in 1961. He had a long career at Penn State in geochemistry and materials science. He founded the Materials Science Laboratory at Penn State and authored hundreds of technical papers. Roy is a member of the National Academy of Engineering and has received many professional awards and honors.
...which is why I posted the above article from the Erie-Times.
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
He can come here and read it...
But anyway his background is VERY far from credible.
I am glad that you found that:
Quote:
Rustum Roy (born July 3, 1924) is a materials scientist, science policy analyst, advocate of interdisciplinary education and alternative medicine, and science and religion.
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
It's my understanding from reading the Yahoo Groups stuff, that Kanzius has lately acknowledged that the EROEI is less than one, which is not surprising. He had earlier made a comment about it being greater than one but, like I said, these were just comments. Kanzius had not been making that explicit claim in any strong way. And there hadn't been any independent testing of the input/output energy. Nor was energy the primary thrust of Kanzius' research in the first place.
Nevertheless, that doesn't shed any light on how efficient a splitter of water molecules his Effect might be. So it's just a very curious thing at this point. All energy considerations aside, I'd never heard of anything like the Kanzius Effect before. From the video, it does indeed appear that a large flame is being produced from the saltwater, a much larger flame than one would expect if electrolysis were being used (although it's impossible to know much just from watching a video). So it's just curious and newsworthy.
But then, following up on the story, I learn that a credentialed PSU Materials Science Professor with degrees in Chemistry has recently taken an up-close look at Kanzius' set up and this trained expert, founder of the Materials Science Lab at Penn State, claims that the Kanzius Effect is indeed something remarkable. Well, that's obviously newsworthy too.
It's not as good as putting the whole PeakOil.com membership on buses to go take a look for themselves, but at least it's a couple of trained eyeballs evaluating the Kanzius Effect for us. His qualifications would certainly enable him to detect a magician's trick.
Of course, this pissing contest where you impugn an expert of considerable tenure and reputation so as to argue a point - that's the amateurish way most arguments here on PO.com are conducted.
By that logic, shouldn't we all be wondering about your (Ming's) credentials which allow you to supercede the credentials of Rustum Roy and deny his observations without having viewed the Kanzius apparatus up close yourself? Put your extensive CV online for us! Hop on a plane and go visit Kanzius yourself! Go find the trap door where the rabbit disappears! _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
Quote:
By that logic, shouldn't we all be wondering about your (Ming's) credentials which allow you to supercede the credentials of Rustum Roy and deny his observations without having viewed the Kanzius apparatus up close yourself? Put your extensive CV online for us! Hop on a plane and go visit Kanzius yourself! Go find the trap door where the rabbit disappears!
You fail to understand the idea of presenting arguments and discussing them.
It is ok by me: Keep up your attempt to pump this hoax.
The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.
Quote:
The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen — which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit — would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.
The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.
Quote:
The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen — which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit — would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.
Laugh - someone should send them a book about Chemistry (grin).
JP
Edit: sorry, yea, just to explain, when you burn hydrogen in air you get water. Like this is just a complicated way of going around in circles...
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