I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5659 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
Like this? link I just googled "mosquito netting bulk" and that was the first hit. I looked at teksupply.com first, but the only stuff they have was black. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6543 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
I don't know, Shanny. I was aware of that source, but the netting they sell looks too "dense"---might not admit enough light and water (although I can water the trees myself). Maybe the variety with 200 holes per square inch might work (I hadn't noticed that option earlier). It's pretty expensive, too, but if I just "do" two trees to see if this works, it shouldn't break the bank. I'll probably give them a call. I'm determined to see my little experiment through. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5659 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
I'm not sure about light reduction, but I bet mosquito net will let rain through if it's harder than fine drizzle. It would be pretty easy to estimate the sunlight attenuation if you had a piece of the stuff. If you talk to them and they already have concrete info about it I hope you'll pass it on to us. And I wish you luck with this experiment against the Japanese beetles! _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 295 Location: Eastern Washington
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
You're very serious about this? Once you find a netting that meets every single one of your needs you'll have to memorize and be able to create such a net H. You might want to purchase some large bulk. Goodluck!
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3876 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
While the Beetle prefer to land in the tops of the trees they hatch from the soil below so I don't think your plan will nessecerily accomplish your goals. The MSU lecture I attended last Thursday recommended a two tier approach, a Japaneese beetle trap located a hundred yards or so away from the tree's it prefers, and a systemic insecticide added to the soil around the tree that the tree will absorb and carry in its sap to the leaves where it will repell the beetles. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
I let my chickens run around the yard. They have the job of keeping the bugs down, and they work hard at it. When I put in new plants, I screen out the chickens, its a lot easier. I see a japanese beetle on occasion, never had a problem with them. _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6543 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
Tanada wrote:
While the Beetle prefer to land in the tops of the trees they hatch from the soil below so I don't think your plan will nessecerily accomplish your goals. The MSU lecture I attended last Thursday recommended a two tier approach, a Japaneese beetle trap located a hundred yards or so away from the tree's it prefers, and a systemic insecticide added to the soil around the tree that the tree will absorb and carry in its sap to the leaves where it will repell the beetles.
In my experience, traps and poisons and even products like Surround simply don't do the job, Tanada (that subject was extensively explored on the Japanese Beetle thread). Poisons can be partially effective but require frequent application and carry many attendant risks, as we know. In areas like mine, the beetles just keep on arriving in vast numbers. In the past, I've seen them actively defoliating fruit trees I sprayed with powerful conventional insecticides just a couple of days earlier.
I've studied the landing behavior of JBs for years, and I've tested my "technique" by hanging a very light, gauzy fabric over the tops and sides of fruit trees. All or nearly all JBs were prevented from landing on the trees' leaves over the three- or four-day trial.
JBs do hatch from the soil below, but only a handful of them would be in the soil immediately around an individual tree. So they wouldn't be much of a factor. Probably they would tend to crawl outward toward the stronger light (and away from the underside of the tree) before taking off.
In any case, it isn't necessary to eliminate every last beetle. Just the bulk of them. The idea is to prevent major defoliation, and severe damage to ripening fruit.
The biggest pitfall with what I'm trying to do would be insufficient light reaching the trees and fruit, which could interfere with proper development of the fruit. The netting needs to be able to admit at least 90% of the incident sunlight, I'm guessing.
Interference with pollination isn't a problem, since the beetle doesn't arrive on the scene until late June. That's when I'd install the netting on the wooden framework. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6543 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
kpeavey wrote:
I let my chickens run around the yard. They have the job of keeping the bugs down, and they work hard at it. When I put in new plants, I screen out the chickens, its a lot easier. I see a japanese beetle on occasion, never had a problem with them.
The Japanese beetle is not established in Florida.
In any case, both domestic and wild birds are ineffective in controlling it. Chickens, for example, do not fly up onto branches to eat insects there. Birds do take some JBs, but it doesn't make any actual difference when it comes to trying to grow fruit.
The myth that all you need to control the JB problem is to start raising chickens and ducks is a many-headed hydra. Each time you cut off one head, another springs up to take its place. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
I have misidentified my bugs!
How about cheesecloth lightweight allows airflow/sunshine I think there may be a problem with water absorption a couple of hits from the Thomas Registry:
available in 100 yard rolls, 3' wide link
This place has 100 yard bolts , 34.5" wide for 35 cents/yard: link _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
Agribon row cover, 10'x2000' running 15 cents/sqyd this may be the material you seek: link good luck with the project _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6543 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
kpeavey, I think cheesecloth would still tend to be too bulky and heavy, esp. when wet. Also, how much light it would admit is unknown. The Agribon product looks like a possibility. Thanks for suggesting it. Fortunately, the company sells smaller amounts than 2000-foot bolts!
It reminds me of Territorial Seed's "summer insect barrier," which may very well be the same material. 90% light transmission is also claimed for that product. I own some, and it casts a fair bit of shade, though. I'm not convinced I can ripen stone fruit under it, but I may just have to try.
I guess the sort of very fine netting I'm envisioning (with a mesh size somewhat larger than that of mosquito netting) may simply not exist. You'd have thought they'd have come up with "Japanese beetle netting" by now, but a Google search produces zero hits for that. I don't know why the JB hasn't entered Florida yet. For some reason the beetle tends to spread more along an wavefront than via advance pockets of infestation, although there have been some of those. It's moving toward Florida at about five miles per year, I believe. When it gets there, you'll know it. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3876 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
Heineken wrote:
kpeavey, I think cheesecloth would still tend to be too bulky and heavy, esp. when wet. Also, how much light it would admit is unknown. The Agribon product looks like a possibility. Thanks for suggesting it. Fortunately, the company sells smaller amounts than 2000-foot bolts! It reminds me of Territorial Seed's "summer insect barrier," which may very well be the same material. 90% light transmission is also claimed for that product. I own some, and it casts a fair bit of shade, though. I'm not convinced I can ripen stone fruit under it, but I may just have to try.
I guess the sort of very fine netting I'm envisioning (with a mesh size somewhat larger than that of mosquito netting) may simply not exist. You'd have thought they'd have come up with "Japanese beetle netting" by now, but a Google search produces zero hits for that. I don't know why the JB hasn't entered Florida yet. For some reason the beetle tends to spread more along an wavefront than via advance pockets of infestation, although there have been some of those. It's moving toward Florida at about five miles per year, I believe. When it gets there, you'll know it.
Not to sound stupid but why not just buy bolts of nylon fly screen clothe and frame it in? It certainly allows air and light passage, and it certainly stops the beetles from passing through. Something like THIS would probably be your most cost effective choice if you go this route. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6543 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
Possibly, Tanada. But: A Japanese beetle is far larger than a gnat, so the holes in the screening in your link will be far closer together than necessary, blocking more light than necessary. Also, that sort of window-type screening is pretty stiff and un-stretchy (not good, since it will tend to be unforgiving and require precise framing), and even the 48-inch-wide option would be pretty narrow; I'd have to build more framing members than are really needed. I hope these structures will not have to be like screened porches; that just isn't practical!
I'm just talking about six or seven tall posts ringing the tree with some furring strips connecting them at the tops. The posts will consist of treated 4 x 4 x 4's sunk two feet into the ground, with untreated 2 x 4 x 10's nailed vertically to them. Once they're in place, it's just a matter of stapling something to them that meets my criteria. The barrier material would go up in June and come down in late August. I really think this can work if I can just find the right barrier material, don't you agree?
Thanks to you and everyone else for your suggestions. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5659 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Source of fine netting to exclude Japanese beetles?
Heineken wrote:
I really think this can work if I can just find the right barrier material, don't you agree?
It seems like it would work. I just thought of pollinators, though - do you think excluding pollinators will be a problem? Or do they approach from below often enough to get the job done? _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
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