Joined: Jun 28, 2005 Posts: 335 Location: san jose CA
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
Given that all biomass is pretty much made up of hydrocarbons/carbohydrates it would make sense. An EROEI of 2.88:1 alone isnt to great, once you factor in the costs of harvesting and processing the biomass then cooling and storing the hydrogen I would imagine it would barely break even.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
Old news. Heating/digesting/hydrolysing wastes or biofuels can produce limited amounts of fuel. But there isn't really sufficient supply to replace more than a small fraction of the diesal or petrol that we need (in US, UK, Europe, Japan, etc).
Using the waste to produce hydrogen doesn't really give us anything new. It simply means that the wastes can be used to fuel hydrogen fuel cell vehicles instead of diesal vehicles. The field-wheel efficiency of the fuel cell vehicle might be slightly better than an IC engine, but not by very much.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
Graeme wrote:
One of the drawbacks with the hydrogen economy is producing large amounts of hydrogen. We know from a recent study that hydrolysis is not going to work because of the large volumes of water required.
what's wrong with using salt water as a source ? plenty of that. does it gum up the electrodes with salt, in a manner that makes the EROEI impractical ?
besides, as soon as it's used for it's intended purpose, you get the water back. the oxygen molecules get to cuddle with the hydrogen molecules once again. _________________ http://www.LASIKdecision.com/ ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
Last edited by pedalling_faster on Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
pedalling_faster wrote:
Graeme wrote:
One of the drawbacks with the hydrogen economy is producing large amounts of hydrogen. We know from a recent study that hydrolysis is not going to work because of the large volumes of water required.
what's wrong with using salt water as a source ?
and more to the point... that is not at all the major drawback, which is that electrolysis has a negative EROEI.
edit - and just to put a cherry on that, if electrolysis was not negative EROEI, every ocean, lake, and stream would have burst into flame the first time lightning ever struck a puddle... like Ice-9 but the opposite.
and Sideous, nice. this is another example of the myth that like Ourobouros, we can live forever by eating our own waste. it's a perpetual motion machine. i just don't think there is as much actual "waste" out there as people think. if there is energy of some form still left in it, it's most likely already being used for something.
Joined: Jul 17, 2004 Posts: 486 Location: Amerika (most of the time)
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
pedalling_faster wrote:
Graeme wrote:
One of the drawbacks with the hydrogen economy is producing large amounts of hydrogen. We know from a recent study that hydrolysis is not going to work because of the large volumes of water required.
what's wrong with using salt water as a source ? plenty of that. does it gum up the electrodes with salt, in a manner that makes the EROEI impractical ?
besides, as soon as it's used for it's intended purpose, you get the water back. the oxygen molecules get to cuddle with the hydrogen molecules once again.
Using saltwater is a no go. The sodium and chlorine ions in the saltwater do all kind of funky things at the electrodes and leaves you with all kind of terrible byproducts such as chlorine gas (aka mustard gas), sodium hydroxide (aka lye) and hydrochloric acid (pretty nasty stuff). The purer the water the better for any application like this. _________________ Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.
I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
Water availability is the least of the concerns regarding H2. We use orders of magnitude more fresh water per day doing other stuff as would be used in a fully developed H2 economy. Even if we had to desalinate the water, the energy cost of doing that versus the cost electrolysis is miniscule. _________________ For ionizing radiation “…the human epidemiological evidence establishes—by any reasonable standard of proof—that there is no safe dose or dose-rate…the safe-dose hypothesis is not merely implausible—it is disproven.” Dr. J.W. Gofman 4
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
Production is only one of the many drawbacks to a so called hydrogen economy. The biggest challenge with H is storing it. H will leak out of most any container as everything, including glass, looks porous to this tiny atom. Even if you can store it with reasonable efficiency, storing it at a usable density is a huge problem. Storing liquefied natural gas is enough of a problem, storing liquefied H is quite another. The whole notion that we will be driving fuel cell powered cars is just a fantasy. Battery powered cars are much more feasible, why the Feds aren't pushing those technologies makes me suspicious. They (the Feds) seem to be pushing anything which involves the production and distribution of a fuel, be it H, ethanol, biodiesel and I think I know why. Fuels can be regulated, taxed and most importantly, used to back a currency. In other words, electricity is ethereal, can be produced locally using various methods and can't really be controlled like a liquid or gaseous fuel can. Ignoring reality is the greatest hallmark of the current US government and it will be our downfall. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Mar 04, 2005 Posts: 2576 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
Sustainable and efficient biohydrogen production via electrohydrogenesis
This is title for full article: here Algae could generate hydrogen for fuel cells
Quote:
For several decades, scientists have known that certain species of algae can produce hydrogen in anaerobic conditions. More recently, researchers have been trying to take advantage of this ability to produce hydrogen that could be used by fuel cells to generate electricity—without expensive processes like electrolysis required for splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen.
Now, a team of biologists including Raymond Surzycki and Jean-David Rochaix from the University of Geneva, and Laurent Cournac and Gilles Peltier, both from the Atomic Energy Commission, the National Center for Scientific Research, and the Mediterranean University, have demonstrated a new method for hydrogen production by algae. In a recent issue of PNAS, the team presented a method using copper to block oxygen generation in the cells of Chlamydomonas reinhardtii that could lead to a consistent cycle of hydrogen production.
Scientists discover record-breaking hydrogen storage materials for use in fuel cells
Quote:
Scientists at the University of Virginia have discovered a new class of hydrogen storage materials that could make the storage and transportation of energy much more efficient — and affordable — through higher-performing hydrogen fuel cells.
“In terms of hydrogen absorption, these materials could prove a world record,” Phillips said. “Most materials today absorb only 7 to 8 percent of hydrogen by weight, and only at cryogenic [extremely low] temperatures. Our materials absorb hydrogen up to 14 percent by weight at room temperature. By absorbing twice as much hydrogen, the new materials could help make the dream of a hydrogen economy come true.”
physorg _________________ Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
Prolific technical writer Don Lancaster has responded and tutored for decades to those searching for Hydrogen solutions that are not laboratory exercises or parlor tricks for wooing devotees or investors. He also offers a fine tutor on filtering pseudo-science from truly inspiring new technologies in a delightfully written series of articles: link
So bolt on your own set of myth busting skills, we need new technologies and thinking and we need to filter out the spam science that will be mixed in with the real jewels.
But do keep a well filtered but open mind, and don't do what I did recently on this site, knock a possible cancer cure for it's ability to provide a viable energy source from hydrogen...
Ready, Fire, Aim!
Joined: Mar 04, 2005 Posts: 2576 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Honda creating home system for drivers to make hydrogen
Apparently, this is what Honda will use: Plug Power Develops Leading Technology for Honda's Fourth-Generation Home Energy Station
Quote:
Plug Power Inc. (Nasdaq:PLUG), a leader in providing clean, reliable on-site energy solutions, today announced the operation of its Home Energy Station IV (HES IV) at Honda's Torrance, CA facilities. HES IV is a continuation of ongoing joint activity between Plug Power and Honda R&D Co., Ltd of Japan. The fourth generation Home Energy Station is a fuel cell system that converts natural gas into hydrogen that can be used to fuel a hydrogen-powered car, while providing heat and electricity for residential use.
The Home Energy Station IV represents the latest evolution of the technology with a 70 percent reduction in size compared to the first unit, making it even more suitable for household installation. Simultaneously, efficiency has significantly increased. Most notably, the HES IV utilizes Plug Power's innovative dual mode fuel cell stack technology, which generates electricity in one mode of operation and acts as a hydrogen purifier in the other.
fuelcellsworks _________________ Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
Joined: May 07, 2007 Posts: 434 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Honda creating home system for drivers to make hydrogen
Omnitir wrote:
Why not skip the middle man and put that solar power directly into a battery? Electric vehicles are a reality right now, not "maybe less than a decade away"
Affordable (under AU $30,000, NOT $150,000 plus!) EV's that will appeal to the millions of joe-sixpack's and their families, while still complying with the design rules, and that have a decent range between charges (300 kilometers minimum would be nice, thats 3 -4 days commuting for many people here) are not. _________________ "That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top, well I say, <censored by peakoil.com> floats"
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1972 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
aflurry wrote:
and Sideous, nice. this is another example of the myth that like Ourobouros, we can live forever by eating our own waste. it's a perpetual motion machine. i just don't think there is as much actual "waste" out there as people think. if there is energy of some form still left in it, it's most likely already being used for something.
Waste is best not wasted, but put back into the land.
Joined: May 13, 2006 Posts: 161 Location: Australia
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen
TonyPrep wrote:
aflurry wrote:
and Sideous, nice. this is another example of the myth that like Ourobouros, we can live forever by eating our own waste. it's a perpetual motion machine. i just don't think there is as much actual "waste" out there as people think. if there is energy of some form still left in it, it's most likely already being used for something.
Waste is best not wasted, but put back into the land.
Earth used to be a perpetual motion machine from a human timescale point of view with extra energy being supplied by the sun.
Biological waste was recycled.
Then we got greedy, went toxic, and into overshoot. Things will balance again we just won't like how it happens.
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with the hydrogen molecules once again.
