Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
Zardoz wrote:
The 1970 Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) cyclone killed a minimum of 300,000. The actual total could possibly have been over a million. We westerners have now completely forgotten about it.
Garret Hardin used this disaster as the subject of his essay "Nobody Dies of Overpopulation."
Quote:
What killed those unfortunate people? The cyclone, newspapers said. But one can just as logically say that overpopulation killed them. The Gangetic Delta is barely above sea level. Every year several thousand people are killed in quite ordinary storms. If Pakistan were not overcrowded, no sane man would bring his family to such a place. Ecologically speaking, a delta belongs to the river and the sea; man obtrudes there at his peril.
In the web of life every event has many antecedents. Only by an arbitrary decision can we designate a single antecedent as cause. Our choice is biased — biased to protect our egos against the onslaught of unwelcome truths. As T.S. Eliot put it in Burnt Norton
Go, go, go, said the bird
human kind Cannot bear very much reality.
Were we to identify overpopulation as the cause of a half-million deaths, we would threaten ourselves with a question to which we do not know the answer How can we control population without recourse to repugnant measures? Fearfully we close our minds to an inventory of possibilities. Instead, we say that a cyclone caused the deaths, thus relieving ourselves of responsibility for this and future catastrophes. Fate is so comforting.
No one ever dies of overpopulation. It is unthinkable.
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
emersonbiggins wrote:
Thanks for reminding me... I have to renew my subscription.
Jack wrote:
Is Pakistan in overshoot? (Yes.)
Does there need to be an adjustment - a dieoff? (Yes.)
And a cyclone is likely to address this issue? (Looks like.)
So...what's the problem?
We talk about die-off. We seem to have some degree of consensus that it's coming.
So if a "low lying, poor country" gets hammered we should...party!
I'll drink to that. And what's with all these people getting their panties in a bunch over what your saying? Hundreds of thousands die everyday... yet we're supposed to shed tears over these douchebags?
And to all the crybabies who are nagging at jack: Boo farking hoo. Get over it. We all gotta go someday, like it or not. Crying about it solves nothing.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3687 Location: over here
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
Zardoz wrote:
The 1970 Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) cyclone killed a minimum of 300,000. The actual total could possibly have been over a million. We westerners have now completely forgotten about it.
Well, it looks like it will be "only" a deathtoll of in the 10's of thousands, which would make it only a medium disaster for the country, I guess if it's less than thousand it's a small disaster.
Anyway, I do hope the world will at least send as much aid as it did in the aftermath of Katrina
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3687 Location: over here
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
hubbertspeak7777777 wrote:
I'll drink to that. And what's with all these people getting their panties in a bunch over what your saying? Hundreds of thousands die everyday... yet we're supposed to shed tears over these douchebags?
And to all the crybabies who are nagging at jack: Boo farking hoo. Get over it. We all gotta go someday, like it or not. Crying about it solves nothing.
Bullshit. The lack of human decency or indeed the lack of respect for human life displayed here is appaling and makes one think of animals rather than humans.
Last edited by Bas on Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: May 13, 2006 Posts: 161 Location: Australia
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
hubbertspeak7777777 wrote:
...And to all the crybabies who are nagging at jack: Boo farking hoo. Get over it. We all gotta go someday, like it or not. Crying about it solves nothing.
I ain't crying but I'm not celebrating either. To celebrate the death of another human being is just plain sick.
And given as I have said elsewhere I expect total war by 2015 if not earlier your own personal disaster is coming to a neighborhood near you.
While I believe that the population of humans on earth is too large, I am disgusted by many of the posts on this thread.
Cheering at the deaths of other less fortunate is shallow, disrespectful and callus.
It's easy to be smug from our Western haven where it is safe and comfortable. Yet I would guess that if all of your friends and family were dead, and your house and all your post peak oil possessions were gone, you would no longer be cheering.
It is this very idea of apathy, ignorance, and lack of care about anything other than ourselves, that has helped get us to this state in the first place.
You may be peak aware, but I am ashamed to be associated with you not only as a "peaker" but as a human being.
Last edited by EarthGamePlayer on Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2125 Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
EarthGamePlayer wrote:
Cheering at the deaths of other less fortunate is shallow, disrespectful and callus.
Agreed.
It is one thing to theoretically discuss that the human race is in overshoot and a 90% die-off must result. It is quite another to take joy in the death of our fellow humans.
Each one of us faces the storm, the flood, the fire, the epidemic, the famine, the ravenous hoard. When those fates come to one of our fellows, even if she or he lives on the other side of the planet, has no access to the Internet and no investments on Wall Street, we should spend a moment bidding that person (or those persons) farewell. Because even if we think "those people" are not one of us, we would be wrong. We are all part of one family. _________________ “Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
Joined: Jun 14, 2007 Posts: 126 Location: SE Qld Australia
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
There are some pretty strong opinions here. If I have stepped over the mark, could a moderator shoot me a message please.
I have spoken to many people who have been through terrible things. Vietnam Vets, peace keepers in Rwanda, a refugee from the Ethiopia/Eritrea massacres. They all follow the same patterns in behavior. I hold every single one of them in high regard and speak of them with respect.
They do not talk about their experiences. At all. The only things that can be learned from them of what they saw/did to survive is in what they don't say.
Some of the attitudes displayed in this thread I find highly telling and thoroughly reprehensible.
In some of the nastier Mad Max scenarios where gun fights happen and riots of people turn on each other have a colossal human cost, to all concerned. The people who brag about how well they are going to perform, better than everyone else may well be all talk as they have never seen such a circumstance.
If they did, they would not talk about it all with such glee.
IMO such people may have all the toys but not the mental strength to survive. Those toys will be confiscated when faced with large numbers of frightened, desperate people who will do anything to survive. The talk and wise arse jokes would quickly dry up due to shock. The real people who could actually do such things we never hear from in this manner. They watch, learn and quietly move on.
The problem of population overshoot is real an frankly the 'solutions' to it are not in us socially at this late stage. As such, certain decisions will be made for us due to circumstance and nature will take its course. This saddens me deeply. This doesn't change reality however.
To celebrate the demise of a region of heavily populated but poor people as a good thing is reprehensible. If we are right then one day this could be someone you care about in the same circumstance.
Personally, I have never killed anyone. I have never been part of an armed group defending/offending from another armed group. I have never had to fight for my own survival. Does this make me unprepared? Perhaps. That being said I value my humanity.
If ever find myself in such a circumstance (possible) and my actions/inactions cost me my life. So be it. _________________ For every question , there is a lie. For every lie, there is a truth. For every truth, there is a way. And for every way, there is a time. This is the time.
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
EarthGamePlayer wrote:
Cheering at the deaths of other less fortunate is shallow, disrespectful and callus.
Perhaps...but it's great fun.
EarthGamePlayer wrote:
Comment deleted, Jack, 11/18/2008
-->Discussions can get heated, but just a friendly and informal point here...you might want to look at the COC. It has specific provisions against advocating suicide. While I can understand that your emotions are engaged, it might be best to avoid saying such things.
As I mentioned, this is just an informal note. But I suggest that you consider editing your post - at which point, I'll be glad to edit the quoted comment above out of my post.
EarthGamePlayer wrote:
You may be peak aware, but I am ashamed to be associated with you not only as a "peaker" but as a human being.
Really? I'd be more than glad to tender my resignation as a member of the human race. Will you accept it on behalf of humans everywhere?
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
DrBang wrote:
There are some pretty strong opinions here. If I have stepped over the mark, could a moderator shoot me a message please.
There's nothing wrong with anything you've written. It's cogent, civil, and well stated. It's a good, well-written post.
DrBang wrote:
I have spoken to many people who have been through terrible things. Vietnam Vets, peace keepers in Rwanda, a refugee from the Ethiopia/Eritrea massacres. They all follow the same patterns in behavior. I hold every single one of them in high regard and speak of them with respect.
They do not talk about their experiences. At all. The only things that can be learned from them of what they saw/did to survive is in what they don't say.
One must be cautious of bias in the sampling technique, lest the statistics be skewed. Likewise, in a qualitative approach, one should pursue additional responses until one has exhausted the various replies. In this particular instance, I can see with certainty that there are responses you have not integrated into your stated views.
There are wolves in the world. They enjoy what they do.
DrBang wrote:
To celebrate the demise of a region of heavily populated but poor people as a good thing is reprehensible. If we are right then one day this could be someone you care about in the same circumstance.
Why?
No, seriously. Let us suppose that I weep, rend my clothing, rip out my hair, and cover myself in ashes. It changes nothing. In the alternative, let us suppose I throw a party, complete with games (pin the X on the bangy comes to mind) and lavish refreshments. Once again, it changes nothing.
Consider the phrase: "region of heavily populated but poor". What is significant? Is their wealth (poor versus rich) important? Or would it be better if the region was lightly population?
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
EarthGamePlayer wrote:
Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
It appears I have failed to communicate. Let me try again.
From the Code of Conduct:
Quote:
Messages exhorting others to commit illegal acts: Murder, extortion, and any other felony are expressly forbidden. Threads and posts advocating suicide will be edited or deleted without notice. DOS attacks, hacking, flooding, and all other related computer crimes are also unacceptable. Also included in this is harassment -- for example, encouraging people to call someone on the phone, flood a website/mailbox, etc because they were mentioned in a linked article.
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Bangladesh about to get smoked?
As bad as the situation is, this disaster is not a die off.
This year it is estimated that Bangladesh's population will grow by over 2.8 million this year, that is by about 7 750 a day. The latest death count that I have seen is 2 400, with some estimates that the total will be between 6 000 and 10 000. So we are looking at a small blimp equal to between 6 hours (reported death count) and 30 hours (max estimate) of population growth.
Given the scale of the disaster, and the minute amount that it will affect the over population situation, I can only say that I cannot begin to imagine the horrors when countries like Bangladesh actually start entering any die-off situation. _________________ We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
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