The Public Mass Transit Thread (merged)

gg3

Denny, ten points for being willing to admit to stuff that most people won't; and no, I don't think it's racism as such, nor do I think "everyone" has a little racist lurking in their id.

What's going on here is very simple: no one wants to be a minority, whether racial or by virtue of wearing clothes that are "out of style." This is another piece of chimp instinct behavior, and it's not the only one.
The entire concepts of "stigma" and "status" and "trophy" and others mentioned in this topic, are chimpanzee-level stuff and have got to GO.
The humans must evolve or they will almost surely become extinct.
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"Car as mobile penis." That would be funny if it wasn't killing us. Probably an outgrowth of puritanical culture, where natural sexuality is denied and suppressed, and thus goes underground to sexualize every other aspect of daily life.
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Re. making public transport more attractive: It's time to bring back public order laws (and not just for public transport, but for other public places as well). Littering, vandalism, spitting, not to mention screaming at the invisible bugs under your skin, and particularly on a public conveyance; all of that stuff has to be citable with an instant ticket right on the spot, and optionally a trip to the local lockup if there's any doubt about one's identity or previous record.

One effect of PO and the climate catastrophe is that manufactured goods of all kinds will become ferociously expensive both to buy and to repair. Thus, any form of vandalism becomes a far more serious issue: the objects one destroys for a cheap thrill may not be fixable or replaceable, or may be but only at high cost. Restitution by direct labor is a logical component of the penalties for these offenses.

As for prevention, bringing back "civics" classes in elementary and secondary school is a logical step, and insisting on civilized manners in school is another logical step.
In all of these cases, the rules/laws and the penalties for breaking them, need to be spelled out clearly in advance. And also, there must necessarily be positive reinforcement for good behavior. Liberty is not the same thing as license, especially in times of crisis.

dinopello

This is pretty simple. Transit has to be coupled with a high walkability. Personal vehicles have to be coupled with parking. These are in conflict and whatever communities put their emphasis on will determine which lifestyle succeeds. Mine started shifting the emphasis to walkability although the net balance is still tilted towards driving somewhat -and even then the car people are squaulking -but transit ridership is relatively high -trains and busses.

You can easily tell which is winning. Observe a location - if the people in the cars are envious of the people enjoying themselves on the shady sidewalks walking next to the beautiful buildings and interesting storefronts/restaurants and gardens then the area is mostly walkable and likely people would not mind arriving there by transit - although a large number probably just walked out of their town home or apartment to the area.

If the people in cars pity the occasional person they see slogging along in the hot sun next to the highway and/or the blank walls of the grotesque concrete boxes that pass off as buildings, then the area is built for cars and transit will not succeed no matter how good it is - stigma or no.

nocar · Intermediate Crude Joined: Nov 05, 2004 Posts: 666

evilgenius

Gahh, off course it's a class issue. The capable minorities don't want to be on public transport either. The economically challenged and the lumpen ride mass transit where mass transit is available. Mass transit just happens to be available where minorities live. I was in Vegas, land of mostly whites and no public transport to speak of, and the no goods didn't hang out on the buses, they hung out in their soon to be repossesed houses. People who needed the buses used the buses. Not many no goods lived on the buses because to get to the bus stop usually meant having to walk for miles.

Revi · Fusion Joined: Apr 25, 2005 Posts: 3112 Location: Maine

I think the main problem with mass transit in America is that most people have never tried it. I talk to people about taking the bus down to NYC and they look at me as if I was suggesting a camel trip across the Sahara. They would never even think of it. Most people have never travelled anywhere without being in a car. They fly places and then rent cars. It's crazy, but they know of no other alternative. I even know people who go to Mexico and rent cars. They want to be mobile, and can't understand that there is an awesome bus system that can take you absolutely everwhere.

When I take the bus or the train I find that most of the time I am travelling with recent immigrants who haven't forgotten about mass transit. They are great. I find that the bus stations are much safer than they were 30 years ago. The recent immigrants are polite and law abiding. I love travelling by bus. It's a pity more of my countrymen don't try it. They might like it too.
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Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.

gg3

In the Oakland and San Francisco area, Greyhound is thought of as a transport system for people with major psychiatric diagnoses who are too crazy to drive or to allow on airplanes. This translates to regular folks fearing for their safety if they take those buses. And the average person does not have the time to just go to the bus station and hang out and see who's around, in order to plan ahead. Once you get on the bus, you may be trapped next to someone who's completely incoherent and whose personal sanitation may leave you wishing you'd gotten all your immunizations before you got onboard.

This is not a "stigma" issue, it's a public health issue. On one hand, people who are functional should be able to travel. On the other hand, people who are clearly unable to take care of themselves or control their impulses, shouldn't be able to put others at risk. And in any case, the general public deserves a transport system that is safe and at very least isn't a cause of anxiety.
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As for "eliminating parking," that one cuts both ways. I have to haul equipment & tools to client sites and spend some times hours on site doing installations. Thus, I have commercial plates and use the "yellow zones" (designated street parking for commercial vehicles).

However, part of the control-freak approach to parking is to allow only large trucks (three axle) to use yellow zones in certain areas. Thus I often end up in parking garages that are "valet only" which means I have to turn over the keys to the truck to some stranger, and trust that they won't directly steal or negligently allow someone else to steal the rest of the (expensive) equipment I'm carrying. And then I have to go back & forth schlepping a couple of cubic yards of PBX materials into the client's site. These are NOT acceptable solutions, and they impact any and every other tradesman who has to go to client sites for service of whatever kind.

Yes, I'd like to have a van the size of the old Morris Mini-Minor van (smaller than a VW) but such things (e.g. the Piaggio and similar units currently manufactured) are not available in these United States.
Whatever other solutions are adopted, they will need to accommodate commercial vehicle usage. That or the public transport system will have to find ways to carry large quantities of goods that accompany passengers.

dinopello · Last edited by dinopello on Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total

As far as city to city travel around here, I know many who take the Amtrak train service and the kids around here take the Chinatown bus. But again, you are going to and from cities where you can walk to things (or take local transit) and having a car is more a liability than a help.

gg3, I would not be for an 'elimination of parking'. Just need to recognize that car storage takes a lot of space and mandating and providing large amounts of it creates significant challenges if you are also interested in walkability. Your point about goods movement and delivery is very important as well. Whether you use docks, loading zones and/or alleys, the details matter a lot to fostering a place where people will enjoy walking.
It sure would make it easier if the delivery vehicles were smaller - and the fire trucks too...

Andrew_S · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 09, 2005 Posts: 683

Maybe if buses and trains become a real necessity for the lower middle class, first and second (even third) class can be reintroduced. Does Amtrak have first and second class?
I can just imagine people with prepaid cards with biometric psycho profiles which restrict which car they can get on. Laughing

Neurotic - Alkie - Psycho.

Revi · Fusion Joined: Apr 25, 2005 Posts: 3112 Location: Maine

The Chinese busses run from Boston to NYC too. They are fun, and move along. They cost half of what it costs on Trailways or Greyhound. I think I'll try them next time I go that way.
_________________
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.

mos6507

uNkNowN ElEmEnt

Is there a stigma?

Whe else would they call it the "looser cruiser?"

Newfie

One way or another I have spent the last 30 years working in mass transit. Not as a planner or the in operations but in the mechanisms that make it work. I always thought that is was preferable to working for the military/industrial complex. Of recent I have had a change of heart.

If we believe, as I do, that the earth is in overshoot, that our finite resources (oil, water, etc.) are being depleted, then our cities as now structured are non sustainable. Mass transit can make them more efficient, for a short period of time. But it is just a house of cards destined to collapse. NJT is building two more tubes into NYC. Something that I anticipated favorably my entire career. Now I look at the project and say "Why?" Manhattan can not survive as it is. Promoting mass transit into Manhattan is just crazy. When will THAT balloon bust?

I find this a painful and confusing topic.
Of course cars are worse. The root problem is just too damn many people and our growth economy. What to do? Not a clue!