Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
peak wrote:
I think the subject to my thread is misleading, I meant why are solar panels seem to be a popular solution to the peak oil problem (below hydrogen and ethanol)?
Solar is popular becasue GW is becoming undeniable, and everyone is afraid of nuclear power.
Same with wind.
Also, hydrogen is not a energy source! _________________ Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1185 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
Glass encapsulated PVs are expected to last at least twice their warranty period, or 50+ years. There are panels available that should last 100 to 150 years. I think that the return on investment is great. Some of my PVs have paid for themselves in the value of energy produced years ago, and are still working fine.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
WisJim wrote:
Glass encapsulated PVs are expected to last at least twice their warranty period, or 50+ years. There are panels available that should last 100 to 150 years.
That's nice in the advertising flyer and all, but the truth is that nobody knows how long panels will last. There are virtually no panels around today that have survived even 30 years, much less say 100. In 2157, you can tell us all about how panels will last 150 years, but until then, it's really just idle speculation. Even if the panel itself was capable of surviving 150 years, how many reroofing projects is it going to survive? How many fallen tree branches? 150 years is a really long time. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3771 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
smallpoxgirl wrote:
That's nice in the advertising flyer and all, but the truth is that nobody knows how long panels will last. There are virtually no panels around today that have survived even 30 years.
Very little of anything lasts 30 years without breaking so I don't know why solar panels in particular are being held to such a high standard. Plus, old panels are so inefficient that it probably wouldn't be worth reserving the space for them anymore even if they were all still operating at their original specs.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3771 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
jbeckton wrote:
Solar is popular becasue GW is becoming undeniable, and everyone is afraid of nuclear power.
Solar panels are really the only discrete way to generate your own electricity. Other technologies take up too much real-estate or piss off the neighbors in one way or another.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
mos6507 wrote:
Very little of anything lasts 30 years without breaking so I don't know why solar panels in particular are being held to such a high standard.
It is germane because panels take a rather large amount of energy to produce. It's life span and where it's located are the two prime determinants of it's EROEI. A panel that is installed in Seattle, and is only in place for 10 years making electricity ends up being a net energy sink rather than a source. It takes more energy to produce, install, and dispose of the panel, than the panel puts out during it's life span. The longer a panel lasts, the higher it's EROEI.
I, like you, think there's very little in the way of manufactured goods that can be counted on to last 30 years. It makes photovoltaic solar a dubious energy source in most places.
mos6507 wrote:
Solar panels are really the only discrete way to generate your own electricity. Other technologies take up too much real-estate or piss off the neighbors in one way or another.
I totally agree with that. I personally would like to have photovoltaics on my house. It's not that I think they are an reasonable way of trying to maintain the status quo, or even that they are particularly environmentally friendly. They do have a lot of value in the realm of grid independence and life boating. They can allow you to have small amounts of electricity without needing the electric grid. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
gnm wrote:
Actually the old Carrizozo project panels are still seen around fairly often (my neighbor even runs a few) and they are around 30 years old....
Hmmm...googling "Carrizozo project photovoltaic" comes up with a post from you as the only thing useful in the top ten. Care to enlighten? _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
OK, so looks like there are some Carrizo panels from the mid 80's still in use. Most of them, though have either broken or are seriously degraded in output, and that's really more like 20 years, not 30. I'm not saying it's impossible for a panel to last 30 years or more, but if you're looking at the energy math, it seems to me that expecting a panel to last 25 years before it breaks is pretty darn generous. Saying that the average panel is going to last 100 or 150 years, just bends reality. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1185 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
There are a lot of PV panels around that are 25 to 30 years old, and a surprising amount that are older. I never said that the average panel would last 150 years, just that there are some available that are expected to last that long. I happen to own lots of things that I use that are more than 30 years old. My wind generator was built in the 1940s, had new bearings and brushes in the mid-1970s, and I have been using it ever since. I have a few cars over 30 years that I use regularly. And I could go on and on.
The Carrizo panels are a special case as they were subjected to abuse in the desert beyond what they were designed for, and were typically purchased by low-budget experimenters who often did low-buck installations that didn't always help the panels' longevity.
There is a lot of factual information out there about PVs, including publications like Home Power magazine among others. They would be good sources of background information on the subject for some of the less informed.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
Since I'm 48 I figure 30 years should be about perfect. Let somebody else try to get to 150 years with the panels. I plan on having them for 20 years after gridcrash, which may happen in the next 10 years. If I live past 78, I'll hang out in the dark.
We have BP solar panels, which were hard to find a couple of years ago. I think solar panels are still in short supply, aren't they?
I'd like to pick up a couple of extra panels to have around just in case. I may start to look around for 100 watt panels, or 120's. There were some in the local pennysaver, called Uncle Henry's last year. I shoulda bought em when I saw them. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
smallpoxgirl wrote:
OK, so looks like there are some Carrizo panels from the mid 80's still in use. Most of them, though have either broken or are seriously degraded in output, and that's really more like 20 years, not 30.
Not sure but I think the Carrizo panels were used with solar concentrators, which would have degraded them more than normal. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
Amen, smallpox girl. If there were a huge shift to solar , the panels will come from China produced with cheap Chinese labor with COAL fired power used in the process. And Wally world might be the distributer lol. That is the only way solar will compete with coal...manufactured in third world countries with dirt cheap labor and coal fired power and dist. by the favorite Chinese factory outlet...Wal mart. Just look at the so called green disposal of computers from America. Shipped to third world countries and disposed of in the most environmental destructive way possible. That is the only way solar can compete...Too bad for the Greens. I have owned solar for three years now and the price on panels is still sky high. And just wait till all those small home owned systems ditch their lead acid batteries for new ones! Talk about an enviro. nightmare!
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